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If we planned on signing Collins wouldn't we have done so by now? We don't exactly gain anything by waiting

In theory, to drive down his asking price. But that's assuming they even have an interest...

 

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That's 3 completely different levels of competition. Just because they can jump from HS to the NCAA successfully doesn't mean they are good enough to also make the jump to the NFL. The same holds true of every pro sport.

I agree. But I think there is pressure associate with each level. That's the point I'm trying to make -- confidence is a key part of being a QB. These top draft picks succeed at lower levels and if their confidence is shaken at the pro level, sometimes they can never recover from it.

Absolutely not. It's not all mental, though certainly that's a big part of it.

I didn't say ALL mental but MORE mental.

A number of QBs simply don't have a good enough arm to succeed in the NFL where they did in college (see Danny Wuerffel).

I thought we were discussing top draft picks at QB. Everyone knew Wueffel's arm was limited.

Clearly Alex Smith wasn't ready to play in the NFL. It wasn't just because he was a rookie, he just wasn't ready. The same was true for McNair, and also for many other rookies who played in an unconventional college offense. But just because Fisher didn't think they were ready yet doesn't mean that rule applies to all rookie QBs.

Yes, he wasn't ready because he was a rookie. If that isn't the case, what reason was he not ready?

I'm (AGAIN) am not saying every rookie is doomed to bust if they start their first year. We have too many success stories which tell us otherwise. But we also have enough information to tell us starting some rookies too early can, and does, damage confidence to the point they never live up to their potential or it takes years for them to do so.

Your opinion is that starting as a rookie has no bearing on their overall career if they have the right stuff to begin with. I can respect that but feel, like everything else, confidence is built over time. I see a danger in starting Young before he should be because I see a danger in shaking the confidence of the future of the franchise if he was to fail early.

If I am Fisher, I sit him on the sidelines until mid-season before even considering him for #2. Then, I only put him in the game in situations he can succeed (big leads, conservative gameplan, lesser defenses, etc.). I let him crawl before he walks. I build him up and give him a foundation for success so when he does have a setback, he knows it's only temporary because he's been successful.

 

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What are great discussion this is and its great to come to a site where these kinds of discussions are conducted in a civil respectable manner. I think you both are making excellent points and it sure has got me to thinking about should he play early or not. Thanks guys! I mentioned in another thread about a very good article on msnbc sports about VY that is relative to this.

 

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Any rookie playing in their rookie year has a great adjustment to make but depending on their postion and college competition the adjustment can be more or less. For any QB there is always the biggest transition because of the mental aspects of having to learn more and read defenses. Still, that only explains why rookie QBs are not as successfull. It doesn't explain why some fail. As Star said, there are busts that stink their first year and there are HOF guys who struggle their first year. Why is it Manning didn't lose his confidence and end up like Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf after his first year? Maybe because Manning is a real good QB and those other guys are simply not NFL material.
On the issue of VY we are not talking about Jeff George or Ryan Leaf here. We are talking about a humble yet confident player that will actually get better after he makes mistakes because he will learn from them. He will work his rear off because he will not accept defeat or failure. Will VY be great? Who knows but seeing action his rookie year will have nothing to do with how he ends up long term. IMO Young will learn alot more by being out there than trying to imagine in his mind what he would have done by watching film or something. As the game slows down for Young, something that will only come from game expereience he will begin to see, react and play at a very high level. Watching film, practicing and talking to coaches only can go so far.

 

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I agree. But I think there is pressure associate with each level. That's the point I'm trying to make -- confidence is a key part of being a QB. These top draft picks succeed at lower levels and if their confidence is shaken at the pro level, sometimes they can never recover from it.

That's fine, but I'm just saying that any player who would have confidence issues as a rookie would just as easily have them in the future. It's just part of their personality. If they can't hack it because of confidence issues, then they can't hack it.

I didn't say ALL mental but MORE mental.

I realize that, but I think you are overestimating the psychological aspect. The mental part of the game also coveres the ability to read defenses, learn the playbook, etc. And just like with other things I talked about, some players who have enough mental ability to succeed in college don't have enough to succeed in the NFL.

I thought we were discussing top draft picks at QB. Everyone knew Wueffel's arm was limited.

That was merely an extreme example. For another, look at talk of Leinart's arm strength. We'll see how that plays out in time.

Yes, he wasn't ready because he was a rookie. If that isn't the case, what reason was he not ready?

Like I said, he played in an unconventional offense in college. That's a common reason to hold out a rookie QB. It wasn't an issue with guys like Marino, Elway, Aikman, Manning, etc. It's one thing to adjust to NFL defenses. It's a whole other issue to have to also adjust to a completely different offense at the same time.

If I am Fisher, I sit him on the sidelines until mid-season before even considering him for #2. Then, I only put him in the game in situations he can succeed (big leads, conservative gameplan, lesser defenses, etc.). I let him crawl before he walks. I build him up and give him a foundation for success so when he does have a setback, he knows it's only temporary because he's been successful.

As far as Young is concerned, he also probably isn't ready to start coming from an unconventional offense. I can't say when he'll be ready, but whenever the coaches feel he's ready then I'll take their word for it. But I think they like the idea of using him as a Slash-type player as the Steelers used Kordell Stewart early on even before he's ready to start. And, for what it's worth, they can't do that if he's the emergency QB...

 

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On the issue of VY we are not talking about Jeff George or Ryan Leaf here. We are talking about a humble yet confident player that will actually get better after he makes mistakes because he will learn from them.

George was/is one of the cockiest players I've ever seen come into the game. He supposedly had it all. I think Leaf is the poster boy for showing what the pressure can do to you when he went off on that reporter.

As the game slows down for Young, something that will only come from game expereience he will begin to see, react and play at a very high level. Watching film, practicing and talking to coaches only can go so far.

Young will learn from practice. The game should slow down for him from the experience he gets there. Though his confidence can take a beating in practice, I don't think it's the same as what happens when it occurs in front of fans and the media who'll immediately start the "bust" talk if he doesn't light it up from day one.

Though I agree with you there is no teacher like experience, I think there are steps involved Young must go through which are key for him to succeed beyond watching game film and practice. Among those is standing on the sidelines and watching Volek run the offense. He will learn from Volek's successes and failures.

 

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That's fine, but I'm just saying that any player who would have confidence issues as a rookie would just as easily have them in the future. It's just part of their personality. If they can't hack it because of confidence issues, then they can't hack it.

I agree. But if that is the only flaw to an othewise successful QB, why not do what you can to build up a young player's confidence first?

To illustrate, I thought I could do not wrong when I was 23 and got my first job at an ad agency. In that job, I was handed much more responsibility than most recent grads are in their entry-level position. Things were different in the "real" world from college where I got by on talent and, like just about anyone entering the workforce, ate a little humble pie early in their careers making mistakes. The old confidence took a bit of a beating but I learned from my mistakes and moved on. I've known other equally talented people who couldn't deal with the setbacks and were in a different career in five years.

To this day, I think if I had been given less responsibility early on, I would have developed, gained confidence and eventually been better for it.
Or, maybe the setbacks made me mentally strong and better for it. There's no way to know for sure. But talking to those who couldn't handle it, I know they felt they were asked to do too much too soon and just we unable to deal with it. You wonder what they could have done if they were in the right situation where they had the time to develop their skills.

The point (and there is a point) is that you don't know how a person will react until it happens and you run the risk of the person never realizing their potential once their confidence is gone.

Personally, I think that risk is avoidable.

I realize that, but I think you are overestimating the psychological aspect.

I may be. I'm no psychologist though spent the night in a Holiday Inn Express.

Like I said, he played in an unconventional offense in college. That's a common reason to hold out a rookie QB. It wasn't an issue with guys like Marino, Elway, Aikman, Manning, etc. It's one thing to adjust to NFL defenses. It's a whole other issue to have to also adjust to a completely different offense at the same time.

Which goes back to why make him the #2 unless you are ready for him to play?

But I think they like the idea of using him as a Slash-type player as the Steelers used Kordell Stewart early on even before he's ready to start. And, for what it's worth, they can't do that if he's the emergency QB...

At the same time, if he is to be the #2, you have to be prepared for him to come in if Volek goes down and accept everything that comes with that.