Well...
One of the FEW harsh criticisms I have for Fisher is regarding his coaching staff and handling of them when they stink. Lowry for example should have been fired about 10 years ago (at least it feels like it). He was a sub-par ST coach and after they tried him at receivers coach...he stunk up the joint! Yet Fisher didn't fire him....and he's STILL on the staff.
The other guy that burst my bubble was the OC during EG's prime when our offense was either run, run, run, punt or run, run, mcnair scranmble or hit wycheck for a first down. I can't remember his name...I think I permanently erased him from my memory it annoyed me so (despite the fact that I met the man in Atlanta prior to the Super Bowl)! And Fisher never got rid of him either....the guy took off to Tampa (who had even worse offensive problems than us), lasted one season before getting fired and out of the NFL.
But you have to look at it in context too. Fisher took over an excellent defense and kept them very good, even when he became head coach. Gregg Williams was the first real departure for our defense getting away from a 4-3 with an emphasis on a 46 D package. Williams kept the hardhitting but changed the way the defense was run (added more overload zone principles, changed our blitzing) though we still play mostly man. Since Gregg Williams worked out so well, it's hard to find fault with our D prior to Schwartz.
On offense, we've had some bad coaches. But I thought Dinger was gonna be our turning point. I was also happy with the Norm Chow hire. However, I'm baffled and flabbergasted about Schwartz and the defensive coaching!
Belicheck gets a lot of the credit for the Pats defense because he's running the system he designed (his playbook) and he's personally trained these guys in the system under him for years and years. Clearly, Fisher is allowing Gregg Williams and Schwartz to change the defense and run their own playbooks. For this reason, I wouldn't give Fisher a lot of credit for the D being good or bad EXCEPT that he's the guy who hired Schwartz and has NOT fired him so he is ultimately responsible for Schwartz.
But make no mistake, the D (as designed and executed) is Schwartz's baby. But Fisher is the one that needs to fire him!
Gut
One of the FEW harsh criticisms I have for Fisher is regarding his coaching staff and handling of them when they stink. Lowry for example should have been fired about 10 years ago (at least it feels like it). He was a sub-par ST coach and after they tried him at receivers coach...he stunk up the joint! Yet Fisher didn't fire him....and he's STILL on the staff.
The other guy that burst my bubble was the OC during EG's prime when our offense was either run, run, run, punt or run, run, mcnair scranmble or hit wycheck for a first down. I can't remember his name...I think I permanently erased him from my memory it annoyed me so (despite the fact that I met the man in Atlanta prior to the Super Bowl)! And Fisher never got rid of him either....the guy took off to Tampa (who had even worse offensive problems than us), lasted one season before getting fired and out of the NFL.
But you have to look at it in context too. Fisher took over an excellent defense and kept them very good, even when he became head coach. Gregg Williams was the first real departure for our defense getting away from a 4-3 with an emphasis on a 46 D package. Williams kept the hardhitting but changed the way the defense was run (added more overload zone principles, changed our blitzing) though we still play mostly man. Since Gregg Williams worked out so well, it's hard to find fault with our D prior to Schwartz.
On offense, we've had some bad coaches. But I thought Dinger was gonna be our turning point. I was also happy with the Norm Chow hire. However, I'm baffled and flabbergasted about Schwartz and the defensive coaching!
Belicheck gets a lot of the credit for the Pats defense because he's running the system he designed (his playbook) and he's personally trained these guys in the system under him for years and years. Clearly, Fisher is allowing Gregg Williams and Schwartz to change the defense and run their own playbooks. For this reason, I wouldn't give Fisher a lot of credit for the D being good or bad EXCEPT that he's the guy who hired Schwartz and has NOT fired him so he is ultimately responsible for Schwartz.
But make no mistake, the D (as designed and executed) is Schwartz's baby. But Fisher is the one that needs to fire him!
Gut
RollTide said:
Lowry and schwartz.....
Lowry's kick and punt return coverage has always been quite good. We always seem to be at or near the top ten in those. I think that's all fisher cared about for a while. It's the return teams that have sucked but last year with pacman we were in the top 10 in both kick and punt return average.
I think a case can be made that our coverage teams have been good in large part because reese has supplied the team with a steady stream of good athletes. Not becausew of great coaching and we all remember that game against oakland in 2002.
On balance lowry is at best an average coach and that shouldn't be good enough. If jeff fisher is a success driven head coach who demands exellence from his coaches and players then why does he tolerate so much mediocrity?
Last years 70% effort should have caused some serious changes to be made beyond just firing the linebacker coach. If fisher is willing to tolerate mediocrity then that means he is a mediocre coach. Someone tell me how i am wrong.
Lowry's kick and punt return coverage has always been quite good. We always seem to be at or near the top ten in those. I think that's all fisher cared about for a while. It's the return teams that have sucked but last year with pacman we were in the top 10 in both kick and punt return average.
I think a case can be made that our coverage teams have been good in large part because reese has supplied the team with a steady stream of good athletes. Not becausew of great coaching and we all remember that game against oakland in 2002.
On balance lowry is at best an average coach and that shouldn't be good enough. If jeff fisher is a success driven head coach who demands exellence from his coaches and players then why does he tolerate so much mediocrity?
Last years 70% effort should have caused some serious changes to be made beyond just firing the linebacker coach. If fisher is willing to tolerate mediocrity then that means he is a mediocre coach. Someone tell me how i am wrong.
Fisher's success...
Fisher coached 2 13-3 teams because he had several near hall of fame players in their primes. Steve-eddie-wycheck-kearse-hopkins and several other fine players like samari-runyon-godfrey-bishop-robertson-robinson-mason as well as one of the all time greats in bruce matthews. What average coach couldn't win with that team?
After the humiliation of that last fags game fisher who was personally mocked by fags fans angrily said he would do everything possible to fix this team. So what has he done? How many heads have rolled? Is this just an average coach throwing darts at the wall hoping to God that young and white can do for him what steve and eddie did? Seems like it.
Fisher coached 2 13-3 teams because he had several near hall of fame players in their primes. Steve-eddie-wycheck-kearse-hopkins and several other fine players like samari-runyon-godfrey-bishop-robertson-robinson-mason as well as one of the all time greats in bruce matthews. What average coach couldn't win with that team?
After the humiliation of that last fags game fisher who was personally mocked by fags fans angrily said he would do everything possible to fix this team. So what has he done? How many heads have rolled? Is this just an average coach throwing darts at the wall hoping to God that young and white can do for him what steve and eddie did? Seems like it.
Lowry should have been fired a couple of times.
Les Steckel...UGH!
If you go back to Lowry's earlier days with the Titans, our coverage units were not good, we kept bringing in way past their prime returners who did nothing (no blocking), and one year we lost 2 games on blocked kicks...I think one was against the Seahawks on a game winning FG attemp that was blocked and returned for a TD. And that was when Del Greco was CLUTCH! We also had the infamous game when Hentrich had to try a long FG (against Chicago I think) with 10 people because Del Greco was warming on the sidelines oblivious to them needing him.
In his early days, he was a below avg coach. To be fair, he did copy the music city miracle and it worked when we needed it to and while we've been stinking, he has drawn up some interesting punt fake plays. But after his stint at WR coach, he needed to be fired.
Over however many years he's been with the Titans, he's worked his way up to avg. Woopee!!!
Gut
Les Steckel...UGH!
If you go back to Lowry's earlier days with the Titans, our coverage units were not good, we kept bringing in way past their prime returners who did nothing (no blocking), and one year we lost 2 games on blocked kicks...I think one was against the Seahawks on a game winning FG attemp that was blocked and returned for a TD. And that was when Del Greco was CLUTCH! We also had the infamous game when Hentrich had to try a long FG (against Chicago I think) with 10 people because Del Greco was warming on the sidelines oblivious to them needing him.
In his early days, he was a below avg coach. To be fair, he did copy the music city miracle and it worked when we needed it to and while we've been stinking, he has drawn up some interesting punt fake plays. But after his stint at WR coach, he needed to be fired.
Over however many years he's been with the Titans, he's worked his way up to avg. Woopee!!!
Gut
RollTide said:
Well...
Well, no one can argue the point that he's not been heavy handed enough with below avg or avg coaches stinking up the joint. He should have fired Lowry, Steckel, Schwartz and anyone else underperforming. I understand that sometimes coaches need a year of breaking in...like a Schwartz. You can give him a break his first year as DC. He'd better not be aweful but if he doesn't out coach the better OC's in the league...I get it. But 5 years is WAY too long to let this stuff go! And yes, Fisher and Reese are both responsible for the people they hire and don't fire.
But as I said, it's really the ONLY harsh criticism of Fisher. Other than that (and it's not exactly a small thing), he's an excellent head coach in the other areas.
However, you decide on what criteria you judge people...be they players or coaches. If you want to say Fisher is a mediocre coach because he allows mediocrity and had the benefit of an excellent DC and many good to great players in their prime's? I get it.
I don't agree with that because almost all coaches are flawed to some extent and usually Fisher's positives outweigh this negative. Not always because Schwartz is hampering this teams advancement and that annoys me to no end...but usually he's a very good coach.
If you could trade Fisher for another coach in the league, who would you exchange him for? How many coaches are in the league that you'd rather have?
Gut
Well, no one can argue the point that he's not been heavy handed enough with below avg or avg coaches stinking up the joint. He should have fired Lowry, Steckel, Schwartz and anyone else underperforming. I understand that sometimes coaches need a year of breaking in...like a Schwartz. You can give him a break his first year as DC. He'd better not be aweful but if he doesn't out coach the better OC's in the league...I get it. But 5 years is WAY too long to let this stuff go! And yes, Fisher and Reese are both responsible for the people they hire and don't fire.
But as I said, it's really the ONLY harsh criticism of Fisher. Other than that (and it's not exactly a small thing), he's an excellent head coach in the other areas.
However, you decide on what criteria you judge people...be they players or coaches. If you want to say Fisher is a mediocre coach because he allows mediocrity and had the benefit of an excellent DC and many good to great players in their prime's? I get it.
I don't agree with that because almost all coaches are flawed to some extent and usually Fisher's positives outweigh this negative. Not always because Schwartz is hampering this teams advancement and that annoys me to no end...but usually he's a very good coach.
If you could trade Fisher for another coach in the league, who would you exchange him for? How many coaches are in the league that you'd rather have?
Gut
RollTide said:
Gut said:
If you have two OLBs and two Ss that are interchangable the system could work. The problem is a S is going to be expected to be both a good run stopper SS and a good cover guy FS. Considering we haven't seen either of those traits in the last few years it might be asking alot to expect a guy like Thompson, who sucked in coverage and against the run to now all of a sudden be good at both. We drafted Lowry as the 3rd guy in our draft over Ko Simpson because Lowry is more fit to be a "tweener" a guy who can either:
1. play both SS and FS effectively or
2. play both SS and FS ineffectively.
We may have passed on a real steal at FS so we end up with a guy who isn't particularly great at either postion?
Thornton is good enough he might be able with Bulluck to pull it off at the OLB spot. I would rate Thornton much higher than Thompson as far as his ability to play his position effectively.
Fisher an average coach...????
Jeff fisher has won 53.5% of all the games he has coached. Never won a super bowl. Why would i hold him on some pedestal as a great coach?
Gut asked a loaded question asking who i would rather have as the titan coach because that involves personalities. Brian billick is a jerk why would i want him coaching my team? I also don't care much for mike holgren, bill parcells or mike shanahan. I just personally don't like them.
I consider these coaches to be better than jeff fisher.
Bill Belichik
Jon gruden
Tony dungy
Mike shanahan
Andy reid
Bill cohwer
At least equal to fisher are:
marvin lewis
brian billick
mike holmgren
mike sherman
Tom coughlin
I still have not mentioned 2 hall of fame multiple super bowl winning coaches in parcells and gibbs and dick vermeil though now retired has a similar career winning percentage and beat fisher head to head in a super bowl. And what about mike martz who has a 62% career winning percentage, made the playoffs in 4 of 6 seasons and it was his offense that was integral to winning a super bowl.
As you can see there are quite a few pretty good coaches in this league so why after this abomination of season from hell should i be kissing fisher's butt?
Now before we have our little whine fest i would advise you to do your homework and know the records of these guys before you spout off.
Correction: Jeff fisher has had 4 losing seasings. 95, 01, 04 ,05. He has had the same number of losing seasons as winning seasons.
Jeff fisher has won 53.5% of all the games he has coached. Never won a super bowl. Why would i hold him on some pedestal as a great coach?
Gut asked a loaded question asking who i would rather have as the titan coach because that involves personalities. Brian billick is a jerk why would i want him coaching my team? I also don't care much for mike holgren, bill parcells or mike shanahan. I just personally don't like them.
I consider these coaches to be better than jeff fisher.
Bill Belichik
Jon gruden
Tony dungy
Mike shanahan
Andy reid
Bill cohwer
At least equal to fisher are:
marvin lewis
brian billick
mike holmgren
mike sherman
Tom coughlin
I still have not mentioned 2 hall of fame multiple super bowl winning coaches in parcells and gibbs and dick vermeil though now retired has a similar career winning percentage and beat fisher head to head in a super bowl. And what about mike martz who has a 62% career winning percentage, made the playoffs in 4 of 6 seasons and it was his offense that was integral to winning a super bowl.
As you can see there are quite a few pretty good coaches in this league so why after this abomination of season from hell should i be kissing fisher's butt?
Now before we have our little whine fest i would advise you to do your homework and know the records of these guys before you spout off.
Correction: Jeff fisher has had 4 losing seasings. 95, 01, 04 ,05. He has had the same number of losing seasons as winning seasons.
Fisher has had to coach under some pretty rough circumstances at times. He took over a pathetic Oilers team that almost immediately became homeless vagabonds for 3 years. Yet he still managed to avoid a single losing season during that wandering stage.
As soon as they had their own stadium, he coached the Titans to the league's best record over a 5-year span (1999-2004). That included back-to-back 13 win seasons, 2 division titles, 2 trips to the AFC Championship game, and 1 Super Bowl run.
Since then, he had a 2005 team that was beset by injuries basically unheard of in the modern era and a rebuilding team in 2006.
I wouldn't necessarily say Fisher is the best in the business, but he is in the upper echelon.
As soon as they had their own stadium, he coached the Titans to the league's best record over a 5-year span (1999-2004). That included back-to-back 13 win seasons, 2 division titles, 2 trips to the AFC Championship game, and 1 Super Bowl run.
Since then, he had a 2005 team that was beset by injuries basically unheard of in the modern era and a rebuilding team in 2006.
I wouldn't necessarily say Fisher is the best in the business, but he is in the upper echelon.
Ditto what SK said.
It'll be interesting to talk about Fish (and Reese) at the end of this year.
It'll be interesting to talk about Fish (and Reese) at the end of this year.
The numbers game...
RT,
Someone mentioned this already, but if you go strictly by winning percentage, there is an obvious flaw in the reasoning. It doesn't take into consideration talent level. A super stocked team could go 12-4 or 13-3 and make the coach look like a genius in the record books. A better coach may take a bad team and raise them up to a 7-9 record. Who's the better coach? You say the guy with the better record, I say the better coach.
I find it interesting that you say my loaded question involves personlities when clearly you are rating them on numbers. So why would personalities matter?
Why are these coaches 'better' than Fisher?
Jon gruden - an excellent coach, but what makes him better than Fisher? His SB ring?
Tony dungy - an excellent defensive coach, but clearly has WORSE problems on offense than Fisher. Dungy's the guy who 'stole' Les Steckel from us!!! He's in the fortunate situation of not having to worry about the offensive side of the ball...so he's basically a glorified DC.
Mike shanahan - An excellent HC but had a rough start to his career. Couldn't win the big one with ONLY a Hall of Fame QB...also needed TD (the league MVP)!
Andy Reid - what has Reid done...messed up several Champioship games at home and then let TO tear his team apart while coaching poorly in the Super Bowl? He's not my idea of a great coach. He's a good fit for a guy with an awesome team but never won a Super Bowl - let alone more than one.
How are these guys at least equal?
marvin lewis - he rebuilt a team and has one playoff appearance. Um...anything else? And don't recite his resume as a DC...we're talking HC here.
brian billick - for a guy who was dubbed an offensive genius, he's had no offense since he's been a HC. He lucked into an awesome defense and an awesome DC. Notice all that Baltimore has accomplished without Marvin Lewis....
mike holmgren - Has he won a SB without Favre in his prime? No. And as HC/GM, you'd think he'd have built a dominant team about 4 years ago. Seattle's been not very good for years under Holmgren though they have FINALLY put the pieces together.....is that great coaching or great players...awesome left side of OL, the best rusher in the NFL and a very good QB along with an excellent defense (for a change).
mike sherman - has he done anything without Favre? Will he ever? No. He's NOT a good HC.
Tom coughlin - I like Coughlin's fire, but he's not as good as Fisher. We dominated the Jags under Coughlin. What's your reasoning?
Parcells and Gibbs ARE Hall of Fame coaches no doubt about it. Parecells has rebuilt teams that couldn't be rebuilt...in nearly overnight and took 2 different teams to the Superbowl and 3 different ones to the Championship game. He's awesome!
Gibbs is the only HC to have developed his own offensive system and then won 3 Superbowls with the same system but 3 different QB's!
Martz is a glorified OC. A brilliant OC, but he inherited the best team in the NFL...the SB champion rams that had 2 of the best WR's, a league MVP at QB and perhaps the best player in the NFL in Marshall Faulk. And the D was darn good too. He made a lot of strange decisions as HC and degraded their talent pool with bad drafts. Wait til he gets a team in need of rebuilding...then you can tell me how equal or superior or whatever.
The ONLY HC's I think I'd agree are better than Fisher are Parcells, Belicheck and Cower. Cowher is one of the few coaches to keep most of his philosophy intact despite the many changes at DC and OC. They always have a super D and an excellent rush attack. Belicheck needs no discussion.
Gibbs is a Hall of Famer but I don't think he's better than Fisher right now. If Gregg Williams wasn't their DC, that team would be terrible! I have no problem with Gruden and Shanahan as Fisher's equals.
Reid, Billick, Dungy and Holmgren are over-rated IMO. Marvin Lewis may be comparable but right now he has little HC experience to mention. Martz is not a good HC IMO but inherited the best team in the league. Notice that they got worse after he took over and didn't have such a dominant advantage in talent.
Perhaps the greatest coach of all time Vince Lombardi was talked about this way...he could take his team and whip you. Then he could take your players and whip you too!
Gut
RT,
Someone mentioned this already, but if you go strictly by winning percentage, there is an obvious flaw in the reasoning. It doesn't take into consideration talent level. A super stocked team could go 12-4 or 13-3 and make the coach look like a genius in the record books. A better coach may take a bad team and raise them up to a 7-9 record. Who's the better coach? You say the guy with the better record, I say the better coach.
I find it interesting that you say my loaded question involves personlities when clearly you are rating them on numbers. So why would personalities matter?
Why are these coaches 'better' than Fisher?
Jon gruden - an excellent coach, but what makes him better than Fisher? His SB ring?
Tony dungy - an excellent defensive coach, but clearly has WORSE problems on offense than Fisher. Dungy's the guy who 'stole' Les Steckel from us!!! He's in the fortunate situation of not having to worry about the offensive side of the ball...so he's basically a glorified DC.
Mike shanahan - An excellent HC but had a rough start to his career. Couldn't win the big one with ONLY a Hall of Fame QB...also needed TD (the league MVP)!
Andy Reid - what has Reid done...messed up several Champioship games at home and then let TO tear his team apart while coaching poorly in the Super Bowl? He's not my idea of a great coach. He's a good fit for a guy with an awesome team but never won a Super Bowl - let alone more than one.
How are these guys at least equal?
marvin lewis - he rebuilt a team and has one playoff appearance. Um...anything else? And don't recite his resume as a DC...we're talking HC here.
brian billick - for a guy who was dubbed an offensive genius, he's had no offense since he's been a HC. He lucked into an awesome defense and an awesome DC. Notice all that Baltimore has accomplished without Marvin Lewis....
mike holmgren - Has he won a SB without Favre in his prime? No. And as HC/GM, you'd think he'd have built a dominant team about 4 years ago. Seattle's been not very good for years under Holmgren though they have FINALLY put the pieces together.....is that great coaching or great players...awesome left side of OL, the best rusher in the NFL and a very good QB along with an excellent defense (for a change).
mike sherman - has he done anything without Favre? Will he ever? No. He's NOT a good HC.
Tom coughlin - I like Coughlin's fire, but he's not as good as Fisher. We dominated the Jags under Coughlin. What's your reasoning?
Parcells and Gibbs ARE Hall of Fame coaches no doubt about it. Parecells has rebuilt teams that couldn't be rebuilt...in nearly overnight and took 2 different teams to the Superbowl and 3 different ones to the Championship game. He's awesome!
Gibbs is the only HC to have developed his own offensive system and then won 3 Superbowls with the same system but 3 different QB's!
Martz is a glorified OC. A brilliant OC, but he inherited the best team in the NFL...the SB champion rams that had 2 of the best WR's, a league MVP at QB and perhaps the best player in the NFL in Marshall Faulk. And the D was darn good too. He made a lot of strange decisions as HC and degraded their talent pool with bad drafts. Wait til he gets a team in need of rebuilding...then you can tell me how equal or superior or whatever.
The ONLY HC's I think I'd agree are better than Fisher are Parcells, Belicheck and Cower. Cowher is one of the few coaches to keep most of his philosophy intact despite the many changes at DC and OC. They always have a super D and an excellent rush attack. Belicheck needs no discussion.
Gibbs is a Hall of Famer but I don't think he's better than Fisher right now. If Gregg Williams wasn't their DC, that team would be terrible! I have no problem with Gruden and Shanahan as Fisher's equals.
Reid, Billick, Dungy and Holmgren are over-rated IMO. Marvin Lewis may be comparable but right now he has little HC experience to mention. Martz is not a good HC IMO but inherited the best team in the league. Notice that they got worse after he took over and didn't have such a dominant advantage in talent.
Perhaps the greatest coach of all time Vince Lombardi was talked about this way...he could take his team and whip you. Then he could take your players and whip you too!
Gut
Gunny...
Dungy came within an eyelash of going to the super bowl in 1999 with shaun king at QB. His best WR that year was yatil green. Does that answer your question?
Dungy came within an eyelash of going to the super bowl in 1999 with shaun king at QB. His best WR that year was yatil green. Does that answer your question?
Gut...
Where did you get the idea that i went strictly by winning percentage? Did i even say that? What about the percentage of times a team makes the playoffs? Fisher's teams have made the playoffs 4 times out of 11. 36%. John gruden has 4 playoff appearences in 8 years.
You asked about my rationale for tom coughlin? Simple, he has been an nfl head coach the same number of seasons as fisher but has been to the playoffs one more time. While starkiller comes up with this familiar homeless line few people remember that coughlin took over a first year expansion team in 1995.
I like how you hold these other coaches to such a high standard. Homgren and shanahan suck because they never won a super bowl without their HOF QB. Of course fisher has never won a super bowl at all but they suck. Nice logic. Holmgren just won an nfc championship without brett favre but because he lost to the steelers he sucks. In the meantime jeff fisher coaches a 4-12 team that quit.
Your logic regarding shanahan is stupid. If it was so easy to win a championship with elway how come dan reeves never did it? Shanahan won
2 super bowls and has been to the playoffs 4 times since those super bowls with QBs named greise and plummer. The guy developed the top running game in the league.
More stupid logic with mike sherman. 6 seasons as a head coach, 5 winning seasons and 4 playoff appearences. Anyone who has followed the packers the last 6 seasons will tell you that they have not had great personel. What is the guy supposed to do he has never coaches anywhere else.
According to gut any accomplishment by a coach who has a HOF QB does not count. Am i getting that right?
Where did you get the idea that i went strictly by winning percentage? Did i even say that? What about the percentage of times a team makes the playoffs? Fisher's teams have made the playoffs 4 times out of 11. 36%. John gruden has 4 playoff appearences in 8 years.
You asked about my rationale for tom coughlin? Simple, he has been an nfl head coach the same number of seasons as fisher but has been to the playoffs one more time. While starkiller comes up with this familiar homeless line few people remember that coughlin took over a first year expansion team in 1995.
I like how you hold these other coaches to such a high standard. Homgren and shanahan suck because they never won a super bowl without their HOF QB. Of course fisher has never won a super bowl at all but they suck. Nice logic. Holmgren just won an nfc championship without brett favre but because he lost to the steelers he sucks. In the meantime jeff fisher coaches a 4-12 team that quit.
Your logic regarding shanahan is stupid. If it was so easy to win a championship with elway how come dan reeves never did it? Shanahan won
2 super bowls and has been to the playoffs 4 times since those super bowls with QBs named greise and plummer. The guy developed the top running game in the league.
More stupid logic with mike sherman. 6 seasons as a head coach, 5 winning seasons and 4 playoff appearences. Anyone who has followed the packers the last 6 seasons will tell you that they have not had great personel. What is the guy supposed to do he has never coaches anywhere else.
According to gut any accomplishment by a coach who has a HOF QB does not count. Am i getting that right?
RollTide said:
but he also had a good defense when he got there and relied on that.
like he had indys offense when he got there.
Fisher needs optimal circumstances to win?
Then he is an average coach.
He has coached up or down to his talent. When circumstances are almost ideal he has won. When they have been bad he has lost. When the team has been inundated with free agent losses or injury they have a 16-32 record. This year when nobody expected much we sucked. Can anyone honestly say that fisher's coaching won us anymore games than we should have? Our team in 2005 was DOA and there was nothing upper echelon about how this team was managed.
According to Gut jeff fisher hired and still keeps on 2 sub par coordinators. 2 of his top three coordinators are sub par! Fisher hired them and keeps them. But he is a better coach than mike shanahan? 2 sub par coordinators but he is upper echelon.
Prior to the 2005 season i was willing to give teflon-jeff a break but after that horrible coaching performance last year why cut him any slack?
Then he is an average coach.
He has coached up or down to his talent. When circumstances are almost ideal he has won. When they have been bad he has lost. When the team has been inundated with free agent losses or injury they have a 16-32 record. This year when nobody expected much we sucked. Can anyone honestly say that fisher's coaching won us anymore games than we should have? Our team in 2005 was DOA and there was nothing upper echelon about how this team was managed.
According to Gut jeff fisher hired and still keeps on 2 sub par coordinators. 2 of his top three coordinators are sub par! Fisher hired them and keeps them. But he is a better coach than mike shanahan? 2 sub par coordinators but he is upper echelon.
Prior to the 2005 season i was willing to give teflon-jeff a break but after that horrible coaching performance last year why cut him any slack?
Roll, as usual your missing the point, I wasn't about Fisher, i was talking about Dungy.
Is he really that good or just benefits from having exceptionally good players.
He's had the best defense and couldn't make the Superbowl.
He's had the best offense and at the moment can't make the Superbowl, and even last year he had a fairly good defense.
Is he really that good or just benefits from having exceptionally good players.
He's had the best defense and couldn't make the Superbowl.
He's had the best offense and at the moment can't make the Superbowl, and even last year he had a fairly good defense.
Gunny...
The bucs were 25th in total defense the year before dungy got there and were 9th in his first year.
Tony dungy has been an nfl head coach 9 years. His first team was 6-10. His teams since have made the playoffs 8 straight years. 8 out of 9 years in the playoffs. He must be doing something right. He has won 63% of all his games which is equal to winning 10 games a year.
The bucs were 25th in total defense the year before dungy got there and were 9th in his first year.
Tony dungy has been an nfl head coach 9 years. His first team was 6-10. His teams since have made the playoffs 8 straight years. 8 out of 9 years in the playoffs. He must be doing something right. He has won 63% of all his games which is equal to winning 10 games a year.
Poor poor victimized jeff fisher....
Get the hankies out because starkiller is only getting started with his homeless nonsense. The fact is the oilers were only "homeless" one season. 1997 when they played in memphis. Starkiller's thesis that jeff fisher couldn't win unless he had a brand new stadium with 70,000 screaming fans makes my point since a great coach could win without that. I guess fisher could never coach in greenbay because that stadium isn't new?
In 1998 things were rough. Hard uncomfortable seating, bathrooms and nacho venders so far away. Of course that has nothing to do with jeff fisher or the team. The team was not homeless in 1998, the players practiced in nashville and knew they would be staying there. There was no uncertainty. They knew they could move their families to the area and buy homes. It's just that they played in a smaller less modern facility. So? The field is still 100 yards. It's not an excuse! Not for an "upper echelon" coach. Maybe for an average coach.
In 1998 this team had very good players. Eddie, steve, bruce, wycheck,harris, hopkins bishop, robertson robinson, gary walker. A young rookie nickel back named rolle. In game 2 that year we lost 13-7 to the chargers and the legendary ryan leaf making jeff fisher one of the very very few head coaches to lose to leaf. There was the special teams debackles against the bears and seahawks that cost us close games. Gut made reference to them earlier. We had the talent to win that year but didn't. Bud adams certainly wasn't pleased with that 8-8 season but according to starkiller jeff fisher heroically coached that very talented team up to 8-8. Bullcrap!
Get the hankies out because starkiller is only getting started with his homeless nonsense. The fact is the oilers were only "homeless" one season. 1997 when they played in memphis. Starkiller's thesis that jeff fisher couldn't win unless he had a brand new stadium with 70,000 screaming fans makes my point since a great coach could win without that. I guess fisher could never coach in greenbay because that stadium isn't new?
In 1998 things were rough. Hard uncomfortable seating, bathrooms and nacho venders so far away. Of course that has nothing to do with jeff fisher or the team. The team was not homeless in 1998, the players practiced in nashville and knew they would be staying there. There was no uncertainty. They knew they could move their families to the area and buy homes. It's just that they played in a smaller less modern facility. So? The field is still 100 yards. It's not an excuse! Not for an "upper echelon" coach. Maybe for an average coach.
In 1998 this team had very good players. Eddie, steve, bruce, wycheck,harris, hopkins bishop, robertson robinson, gary walker. A young rookie nickel back named rolle. In game 2 that year we lost 13-7 to the chargers and the legendary ryan leaf making jeff fisher one of the very very few head coaches to lose to leaf. There was the special teams debackles against the bears and seahawks that cost us close games. Gut made reference to them earlier. We had the talent to win that year but didn't. Bud adams certainly wasn't pleased with that 8-8 season but according to starkiller jeff fisher heroically coached that very talented team up to 8-8. Bullcrap!
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