paraconspiracy said:
one thing to learn is that if a thread is 3 or more pages long, 99% of the time it has gone completely off-topic.
And if that happens, blame the guy who doesn't speak english.
especially if the last poster is Gunny or SEC 330 BIPOLAR...Gunny said:
we are kind of the mop up duty on the board. You know... we just won't let a good thread die... oh yeah... and if there is nothing going on we'll bump a months old thread... Posts have been really light these past few days... I think everyone is turned off by the McNair thing... I am starting to think that maybe there will be a change to deal McNair... I thought there was zero chance of that last week. Now I see a little bit of light there... however... I'm not sold...
Meanwhile our pass defense is total weak sauce until it proves other wise.
Maybe it is best to judge the pass defense by the pass rush... meaning if you compare the pass defense to the pass rush... We are getting way better penetration up front then we are coverage in the secondary. "Hope"fully, this will remedy itself. Until I see results... I know we have the talent now. If it doesn't gel... Swartzie???
Popular practice here. Especially when discussing DB play.Gut said:
:drool:
Gut said:
Gut, I would appreciate it next time if you would address my quote and the intent of what I wrote rather than taking what I said out of context and arguing someone else's point.
The context of my quote had nothing to do with home field advantage and had everything to do with becoming a Titan fan.
As far as what game Fisher was outcoached. I would say about everyone except for the games against the Texans, Ravens or 49ers last year. I would ask you to give evidence of games where Fisher's brilliance actually turned the tide of a game we should have lost because of a disparity in talent level but won because of coaching? I will admit the playoff run in 99 had some decently coached games against Indy and the Jags. If not for the Music City Miracle we wouldn't of even played in those games as the Bills outplayed us despite having both starting OTs injured and out of the game. Except for one play that game was a real Fisher gem.
Stupidity can't be helped....
Based on gut's logic vince lombardi would not be considered a better coach than jeff fisher. After all he had 11 hall of fame players including a hall of fame qB. What would you expect? Lombardi had nothing to do with why those 11 men are hall of famers. Lombardi was "blessed" with all those hall of famers. Nothing he accomplished was special.
That's how moronic this line of thinking has been.
Anyone who doesn't think mike shanahan doesn't deserve a higher rating then jeff fisher is lobotomized. Absolutely certifiable babbling brain dead! Shanahan's accomplishments make a case for considering him the best coach in the whole league. He won 2 titles with john elway when elway was 37 and 38 years old. But somehow those accomplishments are not so grand? Give me a break. Not only has shanahan won with elway but with other QBs. He took a turd of a qB in plummer and actually made him pretty good. The broncos have been to the playoffs 3 straight years with plummer! Brian griese went to the pro bowl under mike shanahan! What the hell more do you want?
Look at gut's comments about joe gibbs to see how poorly informed he is. According to gut the redskins under gibbs have "struggled mightily". Is a 10-6 record and a playoff win struggling mightily? Still what accomplishments gibbs has had is not his it is his defensive coordinator. Notice how the geriatric gibbs snaps up williams to be his DC while the young dynamic fisher holds on to his imbecelic DC? Tell me who is the better coach. Gut praised parcells for hiring great coordinators while admiting earlier that 2 of fisher's three top guys are subpar boobs.
Based on gut's logic vince lombardi would not be considered a better coach than jeff fisher. After all he had 11 hall of fame players including a hall of fame qB. What would you expect? Lombardi had nothing to do with why those 11 men are hall of famers. Lombardi was "blessed" with all those hall of famers. Nothing he accomplished was special.
That's how moronic this line of thinking has been.
Anyone who doesn't think mike shanahan doesn't deserve a higher rating then jeff fisher is lobotomized. Absolutely certifiable babbling brain dead! Shanahan's accomplishments make a case for considering him the best coach in the whole league. He won 2 titles with john elway when elway was 37 and 38 years old. But somehow those accomplishments are not so grand? Give me a break. Not only has shanahan won with elway but with other QBs. He took a turd of a qB in plummer and actually made him pretty good. The broncos have been to the playoffs 3 straight years with plummer! Brian griese went to the pro bowl under mike shanahan! What the hell more do you want?
Look at gut's comments about joe gibbs to see how poorly informed he is. According to gut the redskins under gibbs have "struggled mightily". Is a 10-6 record and a playoff win struggling mightily? Still what accomplishments gibbs has had is not his it is his defensive coordinator. Notice how the geriatric gibbs snaps up williams to be his DC while the young dynamic fisher holds on to his imbecelic DC? Tell me who is the better coach. Gut praised parcells for hiring great coordinators while admiting earlier that 2 of fisher's three top guys are subpar boobs.
Gut said:
Having homer glasses so dark you have lost any sense of reality to the point you write page after page of non-sense is alot harder to stomach than the very humourous rant by RT.
Fisher is not more than an average coach. Period. Its funny how you always have an excuse for coaches that are more successful (they had alot of talent) and big excuses for the Fish (poor guy) but the bottom line is Fisher is no better than Mike Sherman IMO.
Fisher is such a great coach he has been able to put together only 4 seasons above 500 out of 11! 4 out of 11. He is coming off two seasons where we sucked so bad we had the honor of picking #6 and #3 in the draft. If Fisher was coaching in GB he would be looking for a new team right now. I would say if Fisher doesn't break the 500 record this year we should consider looking for a guy who can really be a difference maker as a coach.
By the way if Shanahan was willing to come to Tennessee as HC it would take me about .5 seconds to tell Fisher to not let the door hit him on the way out if I was Reese and Adams. Trying to put Fisher in Shanahan's category is ridiculous. The way the team quit last year was the worst display of loosing control of a team and poor coaching I have ever seen. The way Pacboy was handled was pitiful as well. I'm sure Mason and Roll are filling Mac in on how much better the coaching situation is in Baltimore and how Buttlick would never stand for that kind behavior on their team.
I think anything worse than 7-9 or 6-10, we should consider looking for a coach that can make this team a play-off contender again.
Don't expect us to have a winning season this year!
Don't expect us to have a winning season this year!
Yeah but did Shanahan ever go to blows w/ the D coordinator on the side line? It's not always about coaching some times it about laying out an old guy on the sidelines.
Sox...
Sorry to use your words to address someone else's point.
I am curious though....how come you haven't mentioned Fisher being a terrible coach before??? I know you didn't call him terrible, but if you think he was outcoached in nearly every game...wouldn't that make him a terrible coach? Clearly according to you he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as any solid coach let alone a 'great' like Dungy. How come you haven't been calling for his head for the last 10 years?
I find it interesting that I heard nothing about this from you when we were going to the playoffs 5 years in a row or went to the Super Bowl or several AFC Championship games. Why are you waiting til now to speak?
And I'm a little confused about one aspect of your post..."The game is late in the fourth quarter and the Titans have played well, pathetically most of the game but because they were playing a pathetic Bears team the game was close." You say they played well but also pathetically....which was it? It can't be both for most of the game.
Gut
Soxcat said:
Sorry to use your words to address someone else's point.
I am curious though....how come you haven't mentioned Fisher being a terrible coach before??? I know you didn't call him terrible, but if you think he was outcoached in nearly every game...wouldn't that make him a terrible coach? Clearly according to you he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as any solid coach let alone a 'great' like Dungy. How come you haven't been calling for his head for the last 10 years?
I find it interesting that I heard nothing about this from you when we were going to the playoffs 5 years in a row or went to the Super Bowl or several AFC Championship games. Why are you waiting til now to speak?
And I'm a little confused about one aspect of your post..."The game is late in the fourth quarter and the Titans have played well, pathetically most of the game but because they were playing a pathetic Bears team the game was close." You say they played well but also pathetically....which was it? It can't be both for most of the game.
Gut
Hmmm...
Actually, I didn't take your quote out of context, but I did not address you from the perspective of your post. Sorry.
What made you become a Titans fan if you thought the team was bush-league and had a head coach that would be outcoached MOST of the time??? Sounds like a recipe for PAIN!
Believe it or not, I don't write down everytime Fisher outcoaches someone. And from a strategic standpoint, he rarely gets outcoached. We do get outcoached tactically sometimes but that's usually because of a crappy coordinator....like Schwartz playing 8 man zone vs Peyton so we get no pressure on him and we still can't cover his WR's. And yes, that is a criticism of Fisher and Reese for hiring and keeping guys like that. But since you levied the charge of Fisher being outcoached in nearly all his games, I would like to see one example of Fisher being outcoached (and not his coordinator doing the damage)?
Actually, I didn't take your quote out of context, but I did not address you from the perspective of your post. Sorry.
What made you become a Titans fan if you thought the team was bush-league and had a head coach that would be outcoached MOST of the time??? Sounds like a recipe for PAIN!
Believe it or not, I don't write down everytime Fisher outcoaches someone. And from a strategic standpoint, he rarely gets outcoached. We do get outcoached tactically sometimes but that's usually because of a crappy coordinator....like Schwartz playing 8 man zone vs Peyton so we get no pressure on him and we still can't cover his WR's. And yes, that is a criticism of Fisher and Reese for hiring and keeping guys like that. But since you levied the charge of Fisher being outcoached in nearly all his games, I would like to see one example of Fisher being outcoached (and not his coordinator doing the damage)?
Soxcat said:
And one more thing...
Being outcoached and losing are mutually exclusive issues. There are times when a coach is outcoached but still wins. Similarly, there are times when a coach does a superior coaching job and loses.
If I remember correctly, Parcells allowed a reporter to have full access to the Giants for a week and the reporter made it into a book called No Medals for Trying or No Medals for second place...something like that. Anyway, the guy goes into detail about all the strategy and stuff that went into the game plan for facing the Eagles the next week.
Unfortunately, a lot of those special things either didn't work or were negated by penalty. So did Parcells do a good job or a bad one?
And I don't recall hearing you or anyone else complaining about Fisher's lack of coaching ability while we were owning the Colts and Jags! How come?
Gut
Being outcoached and losing are mutually exclusive issues. There are times when a coach is outcoached but still wins. Similarly, there are times when a coach does a superior coaching job and loses.
If I remember correctly, Parcells allowed a reporter to have full access to the Giants for a week and the reporter made it into a book called No Medals for Trying or No Medals for second place...something like that. Anyway, the guy goes into detail about all the strategy and stuff that went into the game plan for facing the Eagles the next week.
Unfortunately, a lot of those special things either didn't work or were negated by penalty. So did Parcells do a good job or a bad one?
And I don't recall hearing you or anyone else complaining about Fisher's lack of coaching ability while we were owning the Colts and Jags! How come?
Gut
How come?
People are looking for somewhere to pin the blame Gut.
You are to far intelligent of a poster to be posing that question.
Yesterday we were calling for Bud Adams head.
Today Bus Cook is the scapegoat.
Tomorrow we will hang Reese.
Winning cures everything.
Fisher's key is discipline.
The 2005 Tennessee Titans lacked discipline.
Tell me they didn't.
If Fisher fails to maintain discipline Fisher loses his idenity.
(at least to me)
People are looking for somewhere to pin the blame Gut.
You are to far intelligent of a poster to be posing that question.
Yesterday we were calling for Bud Adams head.
Today Bus Cook is the scapegoat.
Tomorrow we will hang Reese.
Winning cures everything.
Fisher's key is discipline.
The 2005 Tennessee Titans lacked discipline.
Tell me they didn't.
If Fisher fails to maintain discipline Fisher loses his idenity.
(at least to me)
tide...again...
Try not going off the deep end and calling people stupid when you blow their point out of proportion...it helps discussion.
The POINT is not that anyone who has a Hall of Famer is a bad coach, but what you do with the talent you have. John Elway was already a Hall of Fame QB BEFORE Shanahan got there. Did he make him a Hall of Famer? NO!
And what did Vince Lombardi do with all of his Hall of Famers that he DID help create? Win several Superbowls and have the most dominating teams in the NFL? I'd say he more than did what could have been done by any other coach. As I said previously - if you were reading - Lombardi not only created Hall of Famers, but he had better strategy than anyone else too!
So Shanahan is given a Hall of Fame QB. And then you tell me how he got Plummer and Griese to get them to the playoffs? Come on now...you and I and everyone else knows they didn't get to the playoffs BECAUSE of Plummer....more like even though they had Plummer. Plummer and Griese are not big time QB's and never will be. Volek could have QB'd those teams to the playoffs only to get blown out...does that make him a good QB? No. Shanahan is a good coach no doubt, but he's not a Hall of Fame coach IMO. You think he's the best coach in the whole league because he had an aging Hall of Fame QB, a Hall of Fame TE and the league best RB (and a solid D) and won 2 Super Bowl's with them? Hasn't Belicheck won 3 Super Bowls with less talent but better coaching? Parcells has won 2 SB's and won against the Bills with definitely less talent and a backup QB. But you think Shanahan is a better coach? Has Parcells won a Super Bowl with a Hall of Famer at any offensive position? Best player in the league at his position?
Again, you're misquoting me with Gibbs. I said aside from this year, they struggled. In '03 they were 23rd in offense and 25th in defense. In '04 they were 30th in offense and 3rd in defense (under Williams). In '05 (this year), they were 11th in offense and 9th on defense. If you read what I wrote, they struggled on both offense AND defense (unless you think a rating in the 20's or 30's is not struggling) til Williams showed up. Then you can see the significant jump they took on D and finally there O is coming around. Keep in mind, that poor offense also featured Portis who was one of the top rushers in the NFL and yet Gibbs had no offense for 2 years. Would you classify that as Gibbs being successful with one of the best RB's, a free agent built OL, a 1000 yard WR and a vet QB? 2 years of that with that talent. I don't rate that as good.
On Fishers side, yopu seem to discount the fact that 6 of our top 12 players were simply cut off the team a couple of years ago. So does Fisher have equal talent to play with? No. But you expect the same results as the teams with good-great talent.
You equate winning with good coaching, but it doesn't work that way. Superior players can overcome mediocre coaching. Just look at Switzer who you probably think is right up there with Lombardi based on SB's and winning percentage and playoff appearance percentage. Heck, based on that you'd rate him better than Lombardi, right?
And again, you're misquoting me when you say I think 2 of his top 3 coordinators are subpar. I said Lowry should have been fired in the past for being bad, but he's turned into an avg special teams guy with the occasional surprise. We have one subpar coordinator...not 2.
If you're gonna give Fisher crap about his subpar coordinators, you also have to give him credit for the good-great ones like Gregg Williams. I thought Dinger was pretty good too. Even Parcells doesn't always pick great coordinators nor does Belicheck nor does Cowher nor does Shanahan nor does Martz or anyone else in the league. Dungy is the guy who HIRED steckel away from the Titans....a good hire? He's never hired a good OC in his entire career. Is Tom Moore a great Offensive Coordinator when he does nothing except watch Manning call the plays and offer suggestions? Has Dungy fired him and brought in someone? Sure Manning can break records because he's that good, but you need help when it comes to the playoffs and Super Bowls.
There is a reason Manning has problems with good 3-4 defenses.
But I digress...
Gut
Try not going off the deep end and calling people stupid when you blow their point out of proportion...it helps discussion.
The POINT is not that anyone who has a Hall of Famer is a bad coach, but what you do with the talent you have. John Elway was already a Hall of Fame QB BEFORE Shanahan got there. Did he make him a Hall of Famer? NO!
And what did Vince Lombardi do with all of his Hall of Famers that he DID help create? Win several Superbowls and have the most dominating teams in the NFL? I'd say he more than did what could have been done by any other coach. As I said previously - if you were reading - Lombardi not only created Hall of Famers, but he had better strategy than anyone else too!
So Shanahan is given a Hall of Fame QB. And then you tell me how he got Plummer and Griese to get them to the playoffs? Come on now...you and I and everyone else knows they didn't get to the playoffs BECAUSE of Plummer....more like even though they had Plummer. Plummer and Griese are not big time QB's and never will be. Volek could have QB'd those teams to the playoffs only to get blown out...does that make him a good QB? No. Shanahan is a good coach no doubt, but he's not a Hall of Fame coach IMO. You think he's the best coach in the whole league because he had an aging Hall of Fame QB, a Hall of Fame TE and the league best RB (and a solid D) and won 2 Super Bowl's with them? Hasn't Belicheck won 3 Super Bowls with less talent but better coaching? Parcells has won 2 SB's and won against the Bills with definitely less talent and a backup QB. But you think Shanahan is a better coach? Has Parcells won a Super Bowl with a Hall of Famer at any offensive position? Best player in the league at his position?
Again, you're misquoting me with Gibbs. I said aside from this year, they struggled. In '03 they were 23rd in offense and 25th in defense. In '04 they were 30th in offense and 3rd in defense (under Williams). In '05 (this year), they were 11th in offense and 9th on defense. If you read what I wrote, they struggled on both offense AND defense (unless you think a rating in the 20's or 30's is not struggling) til Williams showed up. Then you can see the significant jump they took on D and finally there O is coming around. Keep in mind, that poor offense also featured Portis who was one of the top rushers in the NFL and yet Gibbs had no offense for 2 years. Would you classify that as Gibbs being successful with one of the best RB's, a free agent built OL, a 1000 yard WR and a vet QB? 2 years of that with that talent. I don't rate that as good.
On Fishers side, yopu seem to discount the fact that 6 of our top 12 players were simply cut off the team a couple of years ago. So does Fisher have equal talent to play with? No. But you expect the same results as the teams with good-great talent.
You equate winning with good coaching, but it doesn't work that way. Superior players can overcome mediocre coaching. Just look at Switzer who you probably think is right up there with Lombardi based on SB's and winning percentage and playoff appearance percentage. Heck, based on that you'd rate him better than Lombardi, right?
And again, you're misquoting me when you say I think 2 of his top 3 coordinators are subpar. I said Lowry should have been fired in the past for being bad, but he's turned into an avg special teams guy with the occasional surprise. We have one subpar coordinator...not 2.
If you're gonna give Fisher crap about his subpar coordinators, you also have to give him credit for the good-great ones like Gregg Williams. I thought Dinger was pretty good too. Even Parcells doesn't always pick great coordinators nor does Belicheck nor does Cowher nor does Shanahan nor does Martz or anyone else in the league. Dungy is the guy who HIRED steckel away from the Titans....a good hire? He's never hired a good OC in his entire career. Is Tom Moore a great Offensive Coordinator when he does nothing except watch Manning call the plays and offer suggestions? Has Dungy fired him and brought in someone? Sure Manning can break records because he's that good, but you need help when it comes to the playoffs and Super Bowls.
There is a reason Manning has problems with good 3-4 defenses.
But I digress...
Gut
RollTide said:
Sox...
Let's see if you have a point to this post...
I write page after page of non-sense. You're entitled to your opinion. Others think differently and you are free to debate any point I make. You are also free to not read anything I post if you think it's nonsense.
Whether you enjoy Rolltide's humor or not, this is still not the thread for a fictional story. I'm sure there is a proper thread for it elsewhere on the site.
In your previous post you basically called Fisher the worst coach in the league because he was out-coached in almost every game. But now you call him avg? Why? Is he avg or terrible?
And I don't make excuses for every coach more successful than him. I've already mentioned a few coaches I think are better than him...maybe you didn't read that though.
Sherman had the best RB in the league (or just about) and a Hall of Fame QB in his prime. With that talent he went to the playoffs, never made it to the SB, lost GB's legendary homefield playoff advantage and is gone from GB. Fisher has DEVELOPED the Titans from nothing, took them to the playoffs...what...5 straight years, 3 AFC Championship appearances and one Super Bowl with less talent. So tell me again why they are the same? And last I checked, Fisher's tenure as a HC is second longest only to Cowher in Pitt.....not bad for a mediocre coach!
# of playoff appearances has to take into account with talent on the team. If you inherit a terrible team...are you a bad coach because you don't have enough talent to make the playoffs? According to your logic, you are.
If you haven't noticed, with the salary cap, teams are cyclical. They have up periods and down periods (when the cap catches up to you). So anyone who has lasted longer than 1 downh cycle is not gonna look good when you look at playoff appearances compared to a guy who simply inherited a playoff team, rode the up period and then was fired right after that period is done. It is a credit to Fisher that he started with nothing on this team and built a SB team. How many other coaches in Fisher's time have down that (started with a bad team and built it into a SB team)? Not a lot.
But that's nonsense since it doesn't agree with your logic. And if I'm wrong, explain to me how the above paragraph is wrong...or list the vbast numbers of coaches in the last 11 years who took a nothing team and got them to the Super Bowl.
Gut
Let's see if you have a point to this post...
I write page after page of non-sense. You're entitled to your opinion. Others think differently and you are free to debate any point I make. You are also free to not read anything I post if you think it's nonsense.
Whether you enjoy Rolltide's humor or not, this is still not the thread for a fictional story. I'm sure there is a proper thread for it elsewhere on the site.
In your previous post you basically called Fisher the worst coach in the league because he was out-coached in almost every game. But now you call him avg? Why? Is he avg or terrible?
And I don't make excuses for every coach more successful than him. I've already mentioned a few coaches I think are better than him...maybe you didn't read that though.
Sherman had the best RB in the league (or just about) and a Hall of Fame QB in his prime. With that talent he went to the playoffs, never made it to the SB, lost GB's legendary homefield playoff advantage and is gone from GB. Fisher has DEVELOPED the Titans from nothing, took them to the playoffs...what...5 straight years, 3 AFC Championship appearances and one Super Bowl with less talent. So tell me again why they are the same? And last I checked, Fisher's tenure as a HC is second longest only to Cowher in Pitt.....not bad for a mediocre coach!
# of playoff appearances has to take into account with talent on the team. If you inherit a terrible team...are you a bad coach because you don't have enough talent to make the playoffs? According to your logic, you are.
If you haven't noticed, with the salary cap, teams are cyclical. They have up periods and down periods (when the cap catches up to you). So anyone who has lasted longer than 1 downh cycle is not gonna look good when you look at playoff appearances compared to a guy who simply inherited a playoff team, rode the up period and then was fired right after that period is done. It is a credit to Fisher that he started with nothing on this team and built a SB team. How many other coaches in Fisher's time have down that (started with a bad team and built it into a SB team)? Not a lot.
But that's nonsense since it doesn't agree with your logic. And if I'm wrong, explain to me how the above paragraph is wrong...or list the vbast numbers of coaches in the last 11 years who took a nothing team and got them to the Super Bowl.
Gut
I think you'll find a strong corrolation that when your defense isn't good...your record isn't good. There are the exceptions (like the Chiefs who have nearly all of their talent on offense). You'll also notice virtually none of the exceptions win the Super Bowl.
We have lacked discipline since a certain coordinator began running the D.
Gut
We have lacked discipline since a certain coordinator began running the D.
Gut
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