Roll Tide has his own TV program. It's called SPIN TIDE, he should be a Redskin fan because Washington is where he belongs.
Gut said:
First of all I never really said I thought Fisher was a terrible coach. Fisher is an average coach and not some great coach like some make him out to be. SOmetimes he gets outcoached and sometimes he doesn't. As of the last few years he is getting outcoached more than not.
Secondly, if the coordinators are crappy and Schwartz is playing 8 man zones it IS Fisher that should take the blame. The buck stops with him. Heck, George Bush is about 1000 times more removed from FEMA than Fisher is from the OC and when FEMA laid an egg during the hurricanes Bush took the blame. That is one area I cannot agree with your logic. I give Billick alot of credit for the Ravens having a great defense because he is the head coach but you would make the argument that he had a great DC. Sorry, the head coach is the one who calls the shots and if by delegation of authority, attitude or whatever gets the job they should get the credit. Same goes for failures. Mike Martz helped coach an UDFA into one of the greatest QBs in football for a few years and a SB and as head coach coached a 6th round pick into one of the better QBs in the NFL. That is good coaching.
Another issue is the NFL is a very dynamic business. What a player or coach did a few years ago is almost irrelevant today. Thats why a guy like Martz is now an OC. As of late Fisher has not shown a great ability to get the most out of his players, is no genius on either side of the ball or STs and if he doesn't start to show more success is deserving of being shown the door.
Gut...
I'm not going to respond to every stupid point since they are the same points you have made 5-6 times. Shanahan and holmgren had a hall of fame QB ad nauseum. So did vince lombardi, bill walsh, chuck noll, don shula(3 of them!) jimmie johnson and marv levy. I guess they are not better than fisher either. It's dumb!
You go down the list of every top coach and take some angle, not all of them consistent for how each coach's accomplishments are tainted somehow. Yeah that guy won but he had this or he had that. It's stupid!
You once again credited greg williams for the redskin turn around and not their hall of fame head coach. It's as if williams is the head coach somehow that williams and gibbs are independant of each other.
Can't you see the stupidity of your argument? Gibbs was smart enough to snap up williams all the while fisher hangs on to schwartz! And to make your argument even more insane is that fisher's greatest seasons came with that same greg williams as HIS defensive coordinator. Should they not count as significant accomplishments for fisher then either?
Why are you willing to accept that bill cowher is a better coach than fisher? Based on your silly arguments here cowher is no better. Yeah cowher won a super bowl but maybe rothlisberger is a hall of fame QB. How many super bowls has cowher won without rothlisberger? And if tom coughlin is automatically inferior to fisher because he has a losing record head to head than shouldn't cowher?
:sad2:
I'm not going to respond to every stupid point since they are the same points you have made 5-6 times. Shanahan and holmgren had a hall of fame QB ad nauseum. So did vince lombardi, bill walsh, chuck noll, don shula(3 of them!) jimmie johnson and marv levy. I guess they are not better than fisher either. It's dumb!
You go down the list of every top coach and take some angle, not all of them consistent for how each coach's accomplishments are tainted somehow. Yeah that guy won but he had this or he had that. It's stupid!
You once again credited greg williams for the redskin turn around and not their hall of fame head coach. It's as if williams is the head coach somehow that williams and gibbs are independant of each other.
Can't you see the stupidity of your argument? Gibbs was smart enough to snap up williams all the while fisher hangs on to schwartz! And to make your argument even more insane is that fisher's greatest seasons came with that same greg williams as HIS defensive coordinator. Should they not count as significant accomplishments for fisher then either?
Why are you willing to accept that bill cowher is a better coach than fisher? Based on your silly arguments here cowher is no better. Yeah cowher won a super bowl but maybe rothlisberger is a hall of fame QB. How many super bowls has cowher won without rothlisberger? And if tom coughlin is automatically inferior to fisher because he has a losing record head to head than shouldn't cowher?
:sad2:
The bottom line...
There are a lot of great, very good and good head coaches out there. What makes jeff fisher so special? The list of quality coaches in this league is lengthy. Gibbs is in the hall, bellichick and parcells are locks for the hall. Cowher and shanahan have a foot in the door and dungy may be in some day. Holmgren has three super bowl appearences with 2 different teams and 2 different QBs. Coughlin's record of achievement is equal to fisher, billick has a ring, gruden has a ring. Marvin lewis is a good coach, jack del rio has 2 straight winning seasons, jim mora jr is a good coach. Sherman and martz have solid records. I just named 15 coaches! What makes fisher so special?
In 2005 a watermelon could have coached this team to 5 wins. Fisher got us 4. I'm not joking! Take a watermelon, paint it titan colors put head phones on it and the players would have been more responsive. You prefer another kind of fruit be my guest. A pear, apple or grapefruit would have worked the same. This guy was a non factor on that sidelines, in the locker room.
There are a lot of great, very good and good head coaches out there. What makes jeff fisher so special? The list of quality coaches in this league is lengthy. Gibbs is in the hall, bellichick and parcells are locks for the hall. Cowher and shanahan have a foot in the door and dungy may be in some day. Holmgren has three super bowl appearences with 2 different teams and 2 different QBs. Coughlin's record of achievement is equal to fisher, billick has a ring, gruden has a ring. Marvin lewis is a good coach, jack del rio has 2 straight winning seasons, jim mora jr is a good coach. Sherman and martz have solid records. I just named 15 coaches! What makes fisher so special?
In 2005 a watermelon could have coached this team to 5 wins. Fisher got us 4. I'm not joking! Take a watermelon, paint it titan colors put head phones on it and the players would have been more responsive. You prefer another kind of fruit be my guest. A pear, apple or grapefruit would have worked the same. This guy was a non factor on that sidelines, in the locker room.
I have always been a Fisher supporter and while I am not bashing him, I do believe that he needs to raise his game. I believe there a group of young/new coaches who right now are close to him and after 10 years of coaching will probably be considered better.RollTide said:
1.Marvin Lewis
2.Romeo Crennel
3.Nick Saban
yes you did
Fisher has one sub par coordinator, not 3. And clearly he and Reese are hoping that like Lowry, Schwartz will develop. Let's hope so! But yes, I don't give Fisher a pass for that. Then again, there are not always good DC's hanging out waiting for the phone to ring. It is extremely rare that any HC...even Parcells and Bellichek have 3 good coordinators and sometimes they make hires that don't pan out either.
When you said he got outcoached in two thirds of our season, you're saying he's a terrible coach. Perhaps that's my misjudgement. Maybe you think being outcoached 2/3 of the time is avg. That's terrible in my book.
The last few years we've had a seriopus lack of talent (what happens when your GM cuts 6 of the 10-12 best players on the team. Pick any team in the league and remove 6 of their best starters and tell me they aren't at a severe disadvantage! I think you guys equate good coaching to wins and bad coaching to losses. You need to take into accound talent level on a team to evaluate it's coaching. If not, you might as well count wins and losses and leave it at that.
BTW, George Bush is one person removed from FEMA as he appointed Brown to head it. This is similar to Reese hiring Fisher. Reese is not 1000 ppl removed from how the Titans perform...he is ultimately responsible since he hired the person to run the team.
Your logic doesn't make sense if you follow your own argument. You're saying Billick should be given the credit for the great defense and Martz (as a head coach) should be given the credit for the great offense...and yet Martz is no longer a head coach but an OC despite being involved in 3 SB's (2 as head coach) and a lot of wins. Does that tell you that he was a great head coach (but the rest of the NFL is insane not to see it) or that he's a great offensive coordinator and NOT a good HC (which is apparently what the NFL thinks of him)?
Fisher actually has very good knowledge on the defensive side of the ball. You might remember he coached defense and learned under the great Buddy Ryan.
Gut
Fisher has one sub par coordinator, not 3. And clearly he and Reese are hoping that like Lowry, Schwartz will develop. Let's hope so! But yes, I don't give Fisher a pass for that. Then again, there are not always good DC's hanging out waiting for the phone to ring. It is extremely rare that any HC...even Parcells and Bellichek have 3 good coordinators and sometimes they make hires that don't pan out either.
When you said he got outcoached in two thirds of our season, you're saying he's a terrible coach. Perhaps that's my misjudgement. Maybe you think being outcoached 2/3 of the time is avg. That's terrible in my book.
The last few years we've had a seriopus lack of talent (what happens when your GM cuts 6 of the 10-12 best players on the team. Pick any team in the league and remove 6 of their best starters and tell me they aren't at a severe disadvantage! I think you guys equate good coaching to wins and bad coaching to losses. You need to take into accound talent level on a team to evaluate it's coaching. If not, you might as well count wins and losses and leave it at that.
BTW, George Bush is one person removed from FEMA as he appointed Brown to head it. This is similar to Reese hiring Fisher. Reese is not 1000 ppl removed from how the Titans perform...he is ultimately responsible since he hired the person to run the team.
Your logic doesn't make sense if you follow your own argument. You're saying Billick should be given the credit for the great defense and Martz (as a head coach) should be given the credit for the great offense...and yet Martz is no longer a head coach but an OC despite being involved in 3 SB's (2 as head coach) and a lot of wins. Does that tell you that he was a great head coach (but the rest of the NFL is insane not to see it) or that he's a great offensive coordinator and NOT a good HC (which is apparently what the NFL thinks of him)?
Fisher actually has very good knowledge on the defensive side of the ball. You might remember he coached defense and learned under the great Buddy Ryan.
Gut
Soxcat said:
tide...
I take that as a compliment that you aren't responding to my points. You can not argue that to judge coaching fairly, there has to be relatively equal talent. But you don't wish to be fair...you just want to bash Fisher.
I took an 'angle' as to how to 'taint' coaches records? History will judge coaches on one thing...wins and SB's. But that doesn't equate to coaching talent. Who was a better coach the year the Bills met the Giants in the Super Bowl? Parcells right? Why...because he won or because he won with inferior talent?
Think of a chessgame. Both players have the same 'talent' since they have the same pieces. Now, for the next game, I remove half your pieces and you coach at a disadvantage for an entire tournament. According to you, you're just a bad player because you lost and the guys who beat you (with all their pieces) are excellent coaches. If you wish, we can try this technique out and have a chess tournament to prove your point - that talent level is a 'stupid point.'
If you think wins and losses are all that there is to the equation, you should be dumbfounded that the 'great' Mike Martz has lost his place as a HC and is now ONLY an OC. According to what you value, he has a high winning percentage, coached 2 nobody's into being top NFL QB's, has how many playoff appearances in how many years as a head coach, and was in the SB 3 times. According to how you're arguing, Martz should already have his spot picked out in Canton. So why is he immediately not given another job as a HC ala Parcells or Belicheck? If you can answer that question...you'll begin to understand some of myu 'stupid' points.
I didn't credit Gregg Williams with the Redskins turnaround...but I think if he didn't have Williams, he might not have made it to last season when they finally did turn it around. And yes, with the offensive talent they had on offense, he did a terrible job coaching them his first 2 years. Tell me again how he did such a good coaching job his first 2 years....? Point to the evidence...
You can't.
It's funny, you bash Fisher for a sub-par coordinator but don't give him credit for a great one. Be consistent!
I credit Fisher more for Gregg Williams because the Titans were the team that DEVELOPED Williams into a great DC. You might also notice we did quite well when we did have our best talent...1 SB appearance, 3 AFC Chamipionship games and several division titles. And yet, you say Coughlin did an equal job? I am unaware of Coughlin being a HC of any super bowl team nor has he gone to 3 AFC championsip games as a HC. But these are equal right?
You might notice that I didn't say (as you misquoted again) Coughlin is inferior ONLY because of the head to head record. There are many factors involved and if you read the above paragraph, you might have an idea of what they are.
If you read my post, you might notice that I don't say Cowher is a better coach because he won a Super Bowl. You make the argument that perhaps it's all Roethlisberger. This is silly AND irrelevant. First, Big Ben had the worst QB performance in any Super Bowl and Cowher still won....so you could say his coaching overcame the worst qb (for that game) in history. Second, Cowher's been to the Super Bowl with only a mediocre QB in Neil O'Donnell. So much for your argument...
Since you can't be bothered to respond to my points, don't worry about responding to this and continuing this since you're only repeating yourself without actually engaging in the debate (except to name call and insult).
Enjoy!
Gut
I take that as a compliment that you aren't responding to my points. You can not argue that to judge coaching fairly, there has to be relatively equal talent. But you don't wish to be fair...you just want to bash Fisher.
I took an 'angle' as to how to 'taint' coaches records? History will judge coaches on one thing...wins and SB's. But that doesn't equate to coaching talent. Who was a better coach the year the Bills met the Giants in the Super Bowl? Parcells right? Why...because he won or because he won with inferior talent?
Think of a chessgame. Both players have the same 'talent' since they have the same pieces. Now, for the next game, I remove half your pieces and you coach at a disadvantage for an entire tournament. According to you, you're just a bad player because you lost and the guys who beat you (with all their pieces) are excellent coaches. If you wish, we can try this technique out and have a chess tournament to prove your point - that talent level is a 'stupid point.'
If you think wins and losses are all that there is to the equation, you should be dumbfounded that the 'great' Mike Martz has lost his place as a HC and is now ONLY an OC. According to what you value, he has a high winning percentage, coached 2 nobody's into being top NFL QB's, has how many playoff appearances in how many years as a head coach, and was in the SB 3 times. According to how you're arguing, Martz should already have his spot picked out in Canton. So why is he immediately not given another job as a HC ala Parcells or Belicheck? If you can answer that question...you'll begin to understand some of myu 'stupid' points.
I didn't credit Gregg Williams with the Redskins turnaround...but I think if he didn't have Williams, he might not have made it to last season when they finally did turn it around. And yes, with the offensive talent they had on offense, he did a terrible job coaching them his first 2 years. Tell me again how he did such a good coaching job his first 2 years....? Point to the evidence...
You can't.
It's funny, you bash Fisher for a sub-par coordinator but don't give him credit for a great one. Be consistent!
I credit Fisher more for Gregg Williams because the Titans were the team that DEVELOPED Williams into a great DC. You might also notice we did quite well when we did have our best talent...1 SB appearance, 3 AFC Chamipionship games and several division titles. And yet, you say Coughlin did an equal job? I am unaware of Coughlin being a HC of any super bowl team nor has he gone to 3 AFC championsip games as a HC. But these are equal right?
You might notice that I didn't say (as you misquoted again) Coughlin is inferior ONLY because of the head to head record. There are many factors involved and if you read the above paragraph, you might have an idea of what they are.
If you read my post, you might notice that I don't say Cowher is a better coach because he won a Super Bowl. You make the argument that perhaps it's all Roethlisberger. This is silly AND irrelevant. First, Big Ben had the worst QB performance in any Super Bowl and Cowher still won....so you could say his coaching overcame the worst qb (for that game) in history. Second, Cowher's been to the Super Bowl with only a mediocre QB in Neil O'Donnell. So much for your argument...
Since you can't be bothered to respond to my points, don't worry about responding to this and continuing this since you're only repeating yourself without actually engaging in the debate (except to name call and insult).
Enjoy!
Gut
RollTide said:
Funny stuff!
First, let's say the Titans cut Fisher tomorrow....who do you want to replace him with that is better. Giving me a list of who you think are good coaches doesn't do anything. Most good coaches don't change teams for a number of years so it's not like Parcells is waiting for us to fire Fisher so he can come in and coach the Titans.
Second...let's look at your list. Before that, your list is supposedly of great-good coaches. What rating are you giving Fisher?
I've already shown that Gibbs has had 1 good year so far with excellent talent. He's a Hall of Fame coach for what he did 15 years ago...not what he's doing today. I've already shown that Coughlin's achievement is not equal to Fisher's. According to your numbers, Billick and Gruden have been to one Super Bowl (as has Fisher).
Then I like how you resort to just giving me your opinion of guys...Lewis is a good coach...so what. Del Rio has 2 winning records...WOW! Jim Moras Jr is a good coach...wow! And Sherman and Martz have good records!!! Amazing. Of these coaches, none has the resume of Fisher except arguably Martz who's been to 3 SB's....but he's the guy who lost his job as HC and can't get an immdeiate HC job. Doesn't sound like the NFL thinks he's a good HC, huh?
My favorite argument you made is "Dungy may be in [the hall] someday." I MIGHT BE IN THE HALL ONE DAY! So might any coach including current BAD coaches. This is no argument!
So of your list of 15 coaches...
Parcells, Gibbs, Cowher, Shanahan, Holmgren and Belicheck will never be Titans. Of any coach remaining, they either would not be available for the Titans or they are not as good a coach as Jeff Fisher.
The ONLY 2 guys of your list currently available are Sherman and Martz. And despite their great records and a lot of coaching vacancies...neither are currently head coaches. THAT should tell you something!!!
If you can make a case for any coach being better than Fisher that either is available or you think will be available next year...let's hear it!!!
And if a watermelon can coach the Titans, you should apply for the job since anyone can do it. And since anyone can do it, why don't you explain the x's and o's of how the Titans should defend the Colts successfully this year.
Gut
First, let's say the Titans cut Fisher tomorrow....who do you want to replace him with that is better. Giving me a list of who you think are good coaches doesn't do anything. Most good coaches don't change teams for a number of years so it's not like Parcells is waiting for us to fire Fisher so he can come in and coach the Titans.
Second...let's look at your list. Before that, your list is supposedly of great-good coaches. What rating are you giving Fisher?
I've already shown that Gibbs has had 1 good year so far with excellent talent. He's a Hall of Fame coach for what he did 15 years ago...not what he's doing today. I've already shown that Coughlin's achievement is not equal to Fisher's. According to your numbers, Billick and Gruden have been to one Super Bowl (as has Fisher).
Then I like how you resort to just giving me your opinion of guys...Lewis is a good coach...so what. Del Rio has 2 winning records...WOW! Jim Moras Jr is a good coach...wow! And Sherman and Martz have good records!!! Amazing. Of these coaches, none has the resume of Fisher except arguably Martz who's been to 3 SB's....but he's the guy who lost his job as HC and can't get an immdeiate HC job. Doesn't sound like the NFL thinks he's a good HC, huh?
My favorite argument you made is "Dungy may be in [the hall] someday." I MIGHT BE IN THE HALL ONE DAY! So might any coach including current BAD coaches. This is no argument!
So of your list of 15 coaches...
Parcells, Gibbs, Cowher, Shanahan, Holmgren and Belicheck will never be Titans. Of any coach remaining, they either would not be available for the Titans or they are not as good a coach as Jeff Fisher.
The ONLY 2 guys of your list currently available are Sherman and Martz. And despite their great records and a lot of coaching vacancies...neither are currently head coaches. THAT should tell you something!!!
If you can make a case for any coach being better than Fisher that either is available or you think will be available next year...let's hear it!!!
And if a watermelon can coach the Titans, you should apply for the job since anyone can do it. And since anyone can do it, why don't you explain the x's and o's of how the Titans should defend the Colts successfully this year.
Gut
RollTide said:
Ms. Titan...
The coaches you mentioned SHOULD become good-great coaches. But since it is very early on in their tenure, we won't know for 10 years how good or bad they are. Of the below coaches how many playoff appearances do they have?
Good coordinators don't always make good HC's so despite their success as coordinators or college coaches...it doesn't always work out that way. Even Belicheck failed as a head coach his first shot with Cleveland.
Patience. But your characterization is like saying VY will probably be a better NFL QB than McNair. It's possible, but he hasn't even been successful yet so those characterizations are very premature.
Gut
The coaches you mentioned SHOULD become good-great coaches. But since it is very early on in their tenure, we won't know for 10 years how good or bad they are. Of the below coaches how many playoff appearances do they have?
Good coordinators don't always make good HC's so despite their success as coordinators or college coaches...it doesn't always work out that way. Even Belicheck failed as a head coach his first shot with Cleveland.
Patience. But your characterization is like saying VY will probably be a better NFL QB than McNair. It's possible, but he hasn't even been successful yet so those characterizations are very premature.
Gut
MsTitan said:
More of the same from gut...
You dimiss accomplishments because they came with talent yet jeff fisher coaches playoff teams loaded with talent. Fisher's only super bowl team in 99 had steve-eddie-wycheck, bruce, hopkins, kearse, rolle, bishop, robertson and robinson. And that was when all those guys were in their physical prime and kearse was an absolute monster. He damn well better win with that group and his defensive coordinator was gregg williams.
Your comment about tony dungy makes idiocy seem smart. The guy has been to 8 playoffs in 9 years. Even vince lomabardi didn't do that. Common sense would tell you he has built a platform for a hall of fame career since he still has many years still to coach. Duh.
You put donovan mcnabb in the hall gut. Just because it fits your silly arguments? More on that later.
As far as certain coaches being available to the titans? Who cares? I didn't say we should fire fisher just that he isn't some superstar coach. The point being that there are a lot of guys who can coach and MANY more accomplished! A simple fact.
Jeff fisher is coming off his worst season ever as a coach a season in which he was pitiful. By gut's own admission he hired and keeps two subpar coordinators. Why should i consider him elite? We shouldn't.
You dimiss accomplishments because they came with talent yet jeff fisher coaches playoff teams loaded with talent. Fisher's only super bowl team in 99 had steve-eddie-wycheck, bruce, hopkins, kearse, rolle, bishop, robertson and robinson. And that was when all those guys were in their physical prime and kearse was an absolute monster. He damn well better win with that group and his defensive coordinator was gregg williams.
Your comment about tony dungy makes idiocy seem smart. The guy has been to 8 playoffs in 9 years. Even vince lomabardi didn't do that. Common sense would tell you he has built a platform for a hall of fame career since he still has many years still to coach. Duh.
You put donovan mcnabb in the hall gut. Just because it fits your silly arguments? More on that later.
As far as certain coaches being available to the titans? Who cares? I didn't say we should fire fisher just that he isn't some superstar coach. The point being that there are a lot of guys who can coach and MANY more accomplished! A simple fact.
Jeff fisher is coming off his worst season ever as a coach a season in which he was pitiful. By gut's own admission he hired and keeps two subpar coordinators. Why should i consider him elite? We shouldn't.
Mcnair vs mcnabb...
Gut said that andy reid's coaching accomplishments are somehow diminished because he had a "hall of fame QB". So mcnabb is a lock for the hall now? Well that is good news because if mcnabb is in then so will be steve mcnair. Have they not been very similar caliber players? Sure mcnabb has a greater chance to get there someday because he still has more time to win games, go to the playoffs and to maybe win a super bowl while we know the door may closed for steve but remember that steve's last good year came at age 30 and mcnabb turns 30 in november.
The point is this; mcnabb has not been any more a luxury to reid than mcnair has been to fisher. Now that mcnair is gone we look back at the kind of player he was his duo threat ability, playing while hurt etc and realize what a fine player he was. Jeff fisher had that man as his starting QB for 9 years. 9 years!
If mcnabb makes the hall it may be because he was able to play at a high level longer but it could also be because he plays for a better coach.
Mcnabb and reid 6 years together, 5 playoffs.
Mcnair and fisher 9 years together, 4 playoffs.
Gut said that andy reid's coaching accomplishments are somehow diminished because he had a "hall of fame QB". So mcnabb is a lock for the hall now? Well that is good news because if mcnabb is in then so will be steve mcnair. Have they not been very similar caliber players? Sure mcnabb has a greater chance to get there someday because he still has more time to win games, go to the playoffs and to maybe win a super bowl while we know the door may closed for steve but remember that steve's last good year came at age 30 and mcnabb turns 30 in november.
The point is this; mcnabb has not been any more a luxury to reid than mcnair has been to fisher. Now that mcnair is gone we look back at the kind of player he was his duo threat ability, playing while hurt etc and realize what a fine player he was. Jeff fisher had that man as his starting QB for 9 years. 9 years!
If mcnabb makes the hall it may be because he was able to play at a high level longer but it could also be because he plays for a better coach.
Mcnabb and reid 6 years together, 5 playoffs.
Mcnair and fisher 9 years together, 4 playoffs.
tide
Yes, Fisher had a bunch of players in their prime...which of them are Hall of Fame players?
My comment about Dungy is dumb? So Dungy having at least 5 Super Bowl caliber teams and yet failing to reach the Super Bowl even once (let alone win it) makes him a better coach? And because according to your argument, he did something that even Vince Lombardi didn't do...are you saying Dungy is a better coach? If you're not, then your point is pointless! You say he's better than Fisher and Lombardi because he did something they didn't, but then you'll tell me he's not better than Lombardi. I hope you see you nullified your own point.
Maybe you can explain to me how Sherman and Martz - according to your argument are MUCH superior coaches and should be Hall of Fame bound due to their superior playoff appearance percentage - lost their jobs and don't have new jobs as head coaches. Why do you suppose that is? Because you're the smartest guy on the planet and the NFL gm's are all stupid....or there is a serious flaw in your argument?
I didn't put McNabb in the Hall, but clearly Reid had a few coaching breakdowns in the Super Bowl (to give you an example of why I don't think he's a great coach). Did they go into a 2 minute and hurry up offense with 4 minutes left and down by 2 scores? No. Even in the last 2 minutes, they weren't hurrying up. Bad coaching my friend in the biggest game of his life. And if you look at their 3 previous NFC Championship losses, the mighty Reid was outcoached in all of them. You can certainly make the argument that Reid is as good as Fisher, but IMO I've seen way too many examples of him coaching poorly the more important the game AND with his best talent. Fisher has coached poorly when the team has been totally outmanned and outgunned.
There are MANY more coaches more accomplished than Fisher? Please list your criteria. If you're going by playoff appearance percentage, there are many more accomplished than Vince Lombardi...but that's not gonna make me agree with you either!
And try and read a post before responding so you don't continually misquote me. Fisher has one subpar coordinator - not 2! Try to keep that in mind.
Gut
Yes, Fisher had a bunch of players in their prime...which of them are Hall of Fame players?
My comment about Dungy is dumb? So Dungy having at least 5 Super Bowl caliber teams and yet failing to reach the Super Bowl even once (let alone win it) makes him a better coach? And because according to your argument, he did something that even Vince Lombardi didn't do...are you saying Dungy is a better coach? If you're not, then your point is pointless! You say he's better than Fisher and Lombardi because he did something they didn't, but then you'll tell me he's not better than Lombardi. I hope you see you nullified your own point.
Maybe you can explain to me how Sherman and Martz - according to your argument are MUCH superior coaches and should be Hall of Fame bound due to their superior playoff appearance percentage - lost their jobs and don't have new jobs as head coaches. Why do you suppose that is? Because you're the smartest guy on the planet and the NFL gm's are all stupid....or there is a serious flaw in your argument?
I didn't put McNabb in the Hall, but clearly Reid had a few coaching breakdowns in the Super Bowl (to give you an example of why I don't think he's a great coach). Did they go into a 2 minute and hurry up offense with 4 minutes left and down by 2 scores? No. Even in the last 2 minutes, they weren't hurrying up. Bad coaching my friend in the biggest game of his life. And if you look at their 3 previous NFC Championship losses, the mighty Reid was outcoached in all of them. You can certainly make the argument that Reid is as good as Fisher, but IMO I've seen way too many examples of him coaching poorly the more important the game AND with his best talent. Fisher has coached poorly when the team has been totally outmanned and outgunned.
There are MANY more coaches more accomplished than Fisher? Please list your criteria. If you're going by playoff appearance percentage, there are many more accomplished than Vince Lombardi...but that's not gonna make me agree with you either!
And try and read a post before responding so you don't continually misquote me. Fisher has one subpar coordinator - not 2! Try to keep that in mind.
Gut
RollTide said:
Gut going to extremes.....
Typical for a desperate man losing an arguement,,,,,,badly. Not only has gut gone down the list of all the leagues top coaches bashing each one and dissing all they have accomplished but now he hits a new low; lies.
Where did i say that mike martz and mike sherman are hall of fame coaches? Where did i say they were superior to jeff fisher? My entire thesis has been that jeff fisher is not superior to them.
Gut then lies again by saying that he never referred to mcnabb as a hall of famer. Well the quote was this..."andy reid had a hall of fame QB." Maybe he really was talking about aj feeley.:sad2:
Another lie, gut claims i said that dungy was better than lombardi. Again i never said that.
The problem with gut's logic and reasoning is that even had tony dungy won a couple of super bowls gut would just blow it off saying he had great talent.
Gut's motto? Bash success, defend mediocrity.
Typical for a desperate man losing an arguement,,,,,,badly. Not only has gut gone down the list of all the leagues top coaches bashing each one and dissing all they have accomplished but now he hits a new low; lies.
Where did i say that mike martz and mike sherman are hall of fame coaches? Where did i say they were superior to jeff fisher? My entire thesis has been that jeff fisher is not superior to them.
Gut then lies again by saying that he never referred to mcnabb as a hall of famer. Well the quote was this..."andy reid had a hall of fame QB." Maybe he really was talking about aj feeley.:sad2:
Another lie, gut claims i said that dungy was better than lombardi. Again i never said that.
The problem with gut's logic and reasoning is that even had tony dungy won a couple of super bowls gut would just blow it off saying he had great talent.
Gut's motto? Bash success, defend mediocrity.
tide...
First, I'll respond to your insults. Then, I'll give you a single question to answer. If you can't answer them, don't bother posting because you avoid the actual debate of the argument...so just listening to you insult me is not really fruitful to a discussion. And frankly, continually insulting someone IS what people do when they have no argument.
If I'm losing the argument, how come you never answer the points I make that destroy your point? You'll notice I address every point you make. You avoid most of the points I make. If you think that that means you're winning...enjoy your own point of view.
I haven't 'bashed' any coaches throughout the league. Sherman and Martz, despite a high playoff percentage and a lot of wins, are apparently not considered great coaches by the NFL since they both lost their jobs and neither was hired again despite their records or percentage of playoff appearances. Is that me bashing them? Or is that reality?
I didn't lie about McNabb. Perhaps you don't understand what I write so I'll try and clarify for you. I think McNabb is a Hall of Fame cailber QB and when all is said and done, I think he'll get in if he stays healthy. So I think Reid has a Hall of Fame QB but I said I didn't put him in the Hall (meaning it's not established whether he'll be considered a Hall of Fame QB yet - like a Peyton Manning). To put it perspective, I think Reid has had more talent on his teams than Fisher - but you could argue he didn't. But even if he didn't, I pointed out my reasoning for why I don't consider him as good a coach.
The whole point of your argument is that Sherman and Martz are as good or better than Fisher because of their playoff appearance %. Based on that, they are also as good as the best Football coach of alltime...vince lombardi. But I hope you don't think that so your whole argument has been demolished by you. Or maybe I'm wrong...maybe you DO think they are as good as Lombardi.
Yes, you never said Dungy was better than Lombardi, but you imply it in your argument. If Dungy has accomplished something that Fisher and Lombardi haven't...and that's your sole reasoning for Dungy being as good or better than Fisher, then that must also make him as good or better than Lombardi.
It's very simple...either you say Dungy, Sherman and Martz are as good as Lombardi to validate your argument or you say they are NOT and destroy your argument. Which is it?
Gut
First, I'll respond to your insults. Then, I'll give you a single question to answer. If you can't answer them, don't bother posting because you avoid the actual debate of the argument...so just listening to you insult me is not really fruitful to a discussion. And frankly, continually insulting someone IS what people do when they have no argument.
If I'm losing the argument, how come you never answer the points I make that destroy your point? You'll notice I address every point you make. You avoid most of the points I make. If you think that that means you're winning...enjoy your own point of view.
I haven't 'bashed' any coaches throughout the league. Sherman and Martz, despite a high playoff percentage and a lot of wins, are apparently not considered great coaches by the NFL since they both lost their jobs and neither was hired again despite their records or percentage of playoff appearances. Is that me bashing them? Or is that reality?
I didn't lie about McNabb. Perhaps you don't understand what I write so I'll try and clarify for you. I think McNabb is a Hall of Fame cailber QB and when all is said and done, I think he'll get in if he stays healthy. So I think Reid has a Hall of Fame QB but I said I didn't put him in the Hall (meaning it's not established whether he'll be considered a Hall of Fame QB yet - like a Peyton Manning). To put it perspective, I think Reid has had more talent on his teams than Fisher - but you could argue he didn't. But even if he didn't, I pointed out my reasoning for why I don't consider him as good a coach.
The whole point of your argument is that Sherman and Martz are as good or better than Fisher because of their playoff appearance %. Based on that, they are also as good as the best Football coach of alltime...vince lombardi. But I hope you don't think that so your whole argument has been demolished by you. Or maybe I'm wrong...maybe you DO think they are as good as Lombardi.
Yes, you never said Dungy was better than Lombardi, but you imply it in your argument. If Dungy has accomplished something that Fisher and Lombardi haven't...and that's your sole reasoning for Dungy being as good or better than Fisher, then that must also make him as good or better than Lombardi.
It's very simple...either you say Dungy, Sherman and Martz are as good as Lombardi to validate your argument or you say they are NOT and destroy your argument. Which is it?
Gut
RollTide said:
Oy Vei!
Well this sure is an ugly thread. You guys were all born in the late nineties, right?:kiss:
Well this sure is an ugly thread. You guys were all born in the late nineties, right?:kiss:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
