Put stats into context before using please!
The Titans were a debacle in '94 and you know it. To put the defensive numbers in perspective, how good was our scoring offense? I'll give you a hint...LAST!
We had no QB to speak of, our RB gained less than 800 yards and despite having Webster Slaught, we had no 1000 yard WR. Our offense was slightly above college level so our D had a tough job. And while we did have some talent, Fisher didn't stink as a DC. Also, there were 12 teams that gave up more points than us last year according to the website that I'm looking at so either my site is incorrect or your stats are off. I wouldn't say an 18th rated D is terrible when you have the WORST offense in the league.
Also, you care to list how Fisher did assisting the '85 Bears or his tenure with the Eagles? Didn't think so.
But your main point is certainly valid. Fisher does not get a pass for keeping Schwartz. However, we can't fire Fisher just before the season and expect anything good to come of it. We can fire Scwartz and hope to get a benefit though...which is why all the Scwartz bashing less Fisher bashing.
Believe me, no one will need to call for Fisher's head if the team stinks this year. I think we all suspect he'll get fired if the team doesn't improve seriously.
Gut
The Titans were a debacle in '94 and you know it. To put the defensive numbers in perspective, how good was our scoring offense? I'll give you a hint...LAST!
We had no QB to speak of, our RB gained less than 800 yards and despite having Webster Slaught, we had no 1000 yard WR. Our offense was slightly above college level so our D had a tough job. And while we did have some talent, Fisher didn't stink as a DC. Also, there were 12 teams that gave up more points than us last year according to the website that I'm looking at so either my site is incorrect or your stats are off. I wouldn't say an 18th rated D is terrible when you have the WORST offense in the league.
Also, you care to list how Fisher did assisting the '85 Bears or his tenure with the Eagles? Didn't think so.
But your main point is certainly valid. Fisher does not get a pass for keeping Schwartz. However, we can't fire Fisher just before the season and expect anything good to come of it. We can fire Scwartz and hope to get a benefit though...which is why all the Scwartz bashing less Fisher bashing.
Believe me, no one will need to call for Fisher's head if the team stinks this year. I think we all suspect he'll get fired if the team doesn't improve seriously.
Gut
RollTide said:
I have a feeling that this thread is going to turn into another Gut/Rolltide 12 page slugfest. I need to grab my popcorn for this one.
Firstly, there's no reason arguing a 1994 team, since that won't in any way help our current situation.
Secondly, there's more to a player than his weight, when it comes to playing weak and strong side, however I can see your point that we may a little undersized to handle smashmouth football teams.
Still you'd think our experience should be able to make up for lack of size, certainly the LB core out of Tampa are playing well despite being small. Maybe the problem is that we picked smaller, faster players for a scheme that requires big, strong players...
Secondly, there's more to a player than his weight, when it comes to playing weak and strong side, however I can see your point that we may a little undersized to handle smashmouth football teams.
Still you'd think our experience should be able to make up for lack of size, certainly the LB core out of Tampa are playing well despite being small. Maybe the problem is that we picked smaller, faster players for a scheme that requires big, strong players...
I think Schwartz should be fired today and McGinnis made DC but having said that the players should have the character to play hard every time they walk onto the field and that didn't happen Saturday night. No effort, no excitment, no pride not only the D but the OL . Enough of Pillar and Olsen two vets who should be playing well and showing the young guys how its done if they can't sit them and put someone else anyone else in there. I'm a huge Fisher fan but lack of pride and effort fall on the HC. I don't want him fired but he needs to take responsibilty for what happened in Denver and hold Asst. Coaches accountable and now. This team has the talent to be in every game and win some of them and if we have guys that don't want to play get rid of them. It's time to get some answers this week and if some of these vets and coaches(Schwartz) don't improve get rid of them. We can still have a great year start now Titans.
Gut...
I got my numbers from profootballreference.com. According to them the 94 oilers were 28th out of 30 teams in scoring offense which has nothing to do with nothing. It's ok to suck on defense if the offense sucks too now?
Another stat problem is the 2005 defense. According to nfl.com only three teams gave up more points per game. the titans gave up 26.3 a game and only the 49ers-rams-texans gave up more. Fire your stat guy!
There are people on this board who will claim that jeff fisher is as good or even better than coaches like dungy or gruden. What justification is there to think that? Those same posters will then predict about 5 wins this season.
Bottom line...jeff fisher has been a coach of this franchise for 11 full seasons. In those 11 seasons are average ranking in scoring defense was 15.6! Want excuses? Fine i'll remove the 2 injury riddled seasons of 2001 and 2004. Now the average is 12th in scoring defense. Don't think last year was fair? Ok i'll remove that and now it reduces to 11th. What about the early years and homlessness? Ok i'll only count 99, 2000, 2002, 2003. Still the average is 10th. Only twice in fisher's 11 seasons has he had a defense finish in the top 10 and one of those seasons was a loser in 95!
Need i remind you that greg williams was the DC for 4 of those 11 seasons?
I got my numbers from profootballreference.com. According to them the 94 oilers were 28th out of 30 teams in scoring offense which has nothing to do with nothing. It's ok to suck on defense if the offense sucks too now?
Another stat problem is the 2005 defense. According to nfl.com only three teams gave up more points per game. the titans gave up 26.3 a game and only the 49ers-rams-texans gave up more. Fire your stat guy!
There are people on this board who will claim that jeff fisher is as good or even better than coaches like dungy or gruden. What justification is there to think that? Those same posters will then predict about 5 wins this season.
Bottom line...jeff fisher has been a coach of this franchise for 11 full seasons. In those 11 seasons are average ranking in scoring defense was 15.6! Want excuses? Fine i'll remove the 2 injury riddled seasons of 2001 and 2004. Now the average is 12th in scoring defense. Don't think last year was fair? Ok i'll remove that and now it reduces to 11th. What about the early years and homlessness? Ok i'll only count 99, 2000, 2002, 2003. Still the average is 10th. Only twice in fisher's 11 seasons has he had a defense finish in the top 10 and one of those seasons was a loser in 95!
Need i remind you that greg williams was the DC for 4 of those 11 seasons?
Fisher and the 85 bears!
Gut got me good with that question. I have about 50 people here to provide a laugh track just for it. Gut, fisher was a player on injured researve in 1985. He did help out the assistants some on defense but please don't even begin to give that guy credit for anything that happened.
Fisher was also the DC for the eagles in the late 80s when they had an outstanding defense but that was buddy ryan's defense not fisher's. The system was already established there and the defense was loaded with stud players like jerome brown, seth joiner and some guy named white. Unless you are willing to think that ryan just handed over his pride and joy to a 30 year old. I have some ocean front property in kentucky to sell you if you believe that.
91 and 94 are significant because fisher was on his own and not attached to buddy ryan's teets.
Jeff fisher has proven that he is just an average coach. Give him a team with average talent and he'll win 8 games for you. There is a 50% chance he'll hire a top notch coordinato(dinger, williams) but also a 50% chance he will hire a bad coordinator(stekel, jimbo).
Go see a therapist if you can't handle that truth.
Great coaches don't need excuses!
Gut got me good with that question. I have about 50 people here to provide a laugh track just for it. Gut, fisher was a player on injured researve in 1985. He did help out the assistants some on defense but please don't even begin to give that guy credit for anything that happened.
Fisher was also the DC for the eagles in the late 80s when they had an outstanding defense but that was buddy ryan's defense not fisher's. The system was already established there and the defense was loaded with stud players like jerome brown, seth joiner and some guy named white. Unless you are willing to think that ryan just handed over his pride and joy to a 30 year old. I have some ocean front property in kentucky to sell you if you believe that.
91 and 94 are significant because fisher was on his own and not attached to buddy ryan's teets.
Jeff fisher has proven that he is just an average coach. Give him a team with average talent and he'll win 8 games for you. There is a 50% chance he'll hire a top notch coordinato(dinger, williams) but also a 50% chance he will hire a bad coordinator(stekel, jimbo).
Go see a therapist if you can't handle that truth.
Great coaches don't need excuses!
I know one thing for sure. There is nothing about the Titans defense that even slightly looks like the 85 Bears and I'm talking about style more than talent. Buddy Ryan would have one word for the Titans defensive scheme: "sucks".
Shut Up
I can not believe all of this crap. You all act like its the end of the world that we looked horrible in a pre-season football game against a possible Super Bowl winning TEAM. TEAM --> meaning the Broncos are damn good team from player number 1 to player number 56. We are a very young and inexperienced team from player number 1 to player number 56. Leave Fisher alone and leave the DC alone, what other team starts 2 2nd year CB? Also, Hope and Thorton are new and still trying to fit it. Bullock doesn't realize yet how much better he could be with Thorton cause he is not used to having other talent there. Then there is our Defensive line, I don't know the stats but I bet we have the youngest Defensive line in the league. SO...why don't we act like Titan fans and not turn on them when we look terrible in a pre-season game against a monster.
I can not believe all of this crap. You all act like its the end of the world that we looked horrible in a pre-season football game against a possible Super Bowl winning TEAM. TEAM --> meaning the Broncos are damn good team from player number 1 to player number 56. We are a very young and inexperienced team from player number 1 to player number 56. Leave Fisher alone and leave the DC alone, what other team starts 2 2nd year CB? Also, Hope and Thorton are new and still trying to fit it. Bullock doesn't realize yet how much better he could be with Thorton cause he is not used to having other talent there. Then there is our Defensive line, I don't know the stats but I bet we have the youngest Defensive line in the league. SO...why don't we act like Titan fans and not turn on them when we look terrible in a pre-season game against a monster.
Tide...
I am well aware that Fisher was an injured player in '85 and that Ryan asked him to help coach. Certainly the '85 Bears are Ryan's baby, but obviously Fisher doesn't suck or Ryan wouldn't have asked him to help not only that D, but brought him to Philly to be HIS defensive coordinator. Of course that D had great talent, and the result was a great D.
Point is, that didn't make him a bad coach...which is your implication by showing the scoring stats of his DC stint with the Rams and 94 Oilers.
As always, you look at stats without putting them into context unless they prove your point. And when they don't prove your point...it's because of someone else. So you give credit to Fisher for the '94 D which was handed to him from Buddy Ryan, but not for the Eagles D...which was handed to him from Buddy Ryan. Do you see your own double standard?
And in my previous post, I meant that according to my stat site, the Titans in '94 were last in scoring offense and 18th in defense. Not exactly terrible DC job considering the D was on the field all the time!
Anyway, I'm glad you have a laugh track for my posts...at least you're enjoying them!
And don't ask for proof of why I consider Fisher a better head coach than Dungy and some others. That has been covered ad nauseum in other posts so I won't address it here. I think you and I agreed to disagree...
But the main point is, Schwartz can't even get this D to play up to where it should be. You say Fisher is an average coach because if you give him an average team, he'll get 8 wins. We can debate Fisher again if need be next off-season, but Schwartz can't even get an average D to play at an average level. Fisher can at least do that...which is the point!!!
And I agree Soxcat, Buddy Ryan would say our defensive scheme 'sucks!' I think a lot of the people on this board would agree with that!
Gut
I am well aware that Fisher was an injured player in '85 and that Ryan asked him to help coach. Certainly the '85 Bears are Ryan's baby, but obviously Fisher doesn't suck or Ryan wouldn't have asked him to help not only that D, but brought him to Philly to be HIS defensive coordinator. Of course that D had great talent, and the result was a great D.
Point is, that didn't make him a bad coach...which is your implication by showing the scoring stats of his DC stint with the Rams and 94 Oilers.
As always, you look at stats without putting them into context unless they prove your point. And when they don't prove your point...it's because of someone else. So you give credit to Fisher for the '94 D which was handed to him from Buddy Ryan, but not for the Eagles D...which was handed to him from Buddy Ryan. Do you see your own double standard?
And in my previous post, I meant that according to my stat site, the Titans in '94 were last in scoring offense and 18th in defense. Not exactly terrible DC job considering the D was on the field all the time!
Anyway, I'm glad you have a laugh track for my posts...at least you're enjoying them!
And don't ask for proof of why I consider Fisher a better head coach than Dungy and some others. That has been covered ad nauseum in other posts so I won't address it here. I think you and I agreed to disagree...
But the main point is, Schwartz can't even get this D to play up to where it should be. You say Fisher is an average coach because if you give him an average team, he'll get 8 wins. We can debate Fisher again if need be next off-season, but Schwartz can't even get an average D to play at an average level. Fisher can at least do that...which is the point!!!
And I agree Soxcat, Buddy Ryan would say our defensive scheme 'sucks!' I think a lot of the people on this board would agree with that!
Gut
RollTide said:
RollTide said:
I'd be perfectly happy if we were 12th in scoring this year. I just don't see it happening.
I haven't read every word of the on and on ramblings of everyone on this thread...but I don't think anyone has pointed out that one of the stated reasons for bringing in Hope, Thornton, Givens, and Mawae was to provide "much needed" leadership....Bulluck, KVB, and a few others are also in a position where they are expected to do the same...
It's actually very good, and about time, these guys starting calling out the quiters, losers, and guys who, in general, need to get with the program or pack their bags !!!
I'm glad to see it...They are "sweeping up" in a way no coach can do...
It's actually very good, and about time, these guys starting calling out the quiters, losers, and guys who, in general, need to get with the program or pack their bags !!!
I'm glad to see it...They are "sweeping up" in a way no coach can do...
BAMARON, good take man... I like that...
I think I can make kool-aid out of that. :winker:
I think I can make kool-aid out of that. :winker:
Bizz...
We are a very young and inexperienced team from player number 1 to player number 56.
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That is absolutely BS! We are not that young! We are not that young! We are not that young!
Our average starting player has over 5 years experience. Our starting guards and center average 10 years a man!
We have just 3 starters in their second year and all of them were starters last season. Roos-hill-pacman. We have 3rd year players like odom-troupe-laboy-starks-bell who have all had more than enough playing experience to succeed. Did you know that starks' contract is done after this season?
There is not one starting player on this team who is a rookie! There are many super bowl contenders that cannot say that.
Where is all this youth and inexperience? Sirmon is a 7 year guy, so is bulluck and volek. Hope-thornton-haynesworth-thompson are all in their 5th season. KVB is in his 6th season.
Where are all these players that you would call too young? I don't see them!:sad2:
We are a very young and inexperienced team from player number 1 to player number 56.
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That is absolutely BS! We are not that young! We are not that young! We are not that young!
Our average starting player has over 5 years experience. Our starting guards and center average 10 years a man!
We have just 3 starters in their second year and all of them were starters last season. Roos-hill-pacman. We have 3rd year players like odom-troupe-laboy-starks-bell who have all had more than enough playing experience to succeed. Did you know that starks' contract is done after this season?
There is not one starting player on this team who is a rookie! There are many super bowl contenders that cannot say that.
Where is all this youth and inexperience? Sirmon is a 7 year guy, so is bulluck and volek. Hope-thornton-haynesworth-thompson are all in their 5th season. KVB is in his 6th season.
Where are all these players that you would call too young? I don't see them!:sad2:
I'm going to stay out of the crossfire here. But I will state two things I know.
1.) What Bulluck said was the truth. I'm glad a player was able to come out and say it. His quote was definitely signature quality.
2.) I don't how good of a coach Fisher is. But I do know that if Fisher was fired tonight, he'd have another job by Saturday.
1.) What Bulluck said was the truth. I'm glad a player was able to come out and say it. His quote was definitely signature quality.
2.) I don't how good of a coach Fisher is. But I do know that if Fisher was fired tonight, he'd have another job by Saturday.
But that's just it...
Bulluck is calling out players while Hope...straight from a Super Bowl Championship is sort of calling out the coaching staff. Commenting that practice stunk and should have been re-started is talking to the coaches (they start the practices)!
If he's calling out coaches I think that is another indication that we have a problem. And these guys brought in for leadership are looking for some from the coaching staff. They need some help!
I hope Bulluck, Thornton and Hope get the D righted because I don't have much faith that Schwartz can do it!
And Tide is right, this isn't a YOUNG team as much as you'd expect. We are built to win in the next few years. Unfortunately, we're gonna see that window start to close as VY starts to hopefully shine. But this coaching and playing has to get fixed NOW!
Gut
Bulluck is calling out players while Hope...straight from a Super Bowl Championship is sort of calling out the coaching staff. Commenting that practice stunk and should have been re-started is talking to the coaches (they start the practices)!
If he's calling out coaches I think that is another indication that we have a problem. And these guys brought in for leadership are looking for some from the coaching staff. They need some help!
I hope Bulluck, Thornton and Hope get the D righted because I don't have much faith that Schwartz can do it!
And Tide is right, this isn't a YOUNG team as much as you'd expect. We are built to win in the next few years. Unfortunately, we're gonna see that window start to close as VY starts to hopefully shine. But this coaching and playing has to get fixed NOW!
Gut
BAMARON said:
Gut said:
That is the way I saw Hope's comments, he seemed to be critical of the coaching staff.
If we have coaching problems, and maybe we do, I'm not sure that's gonna get fixed right away...
I still think it's a positive that players, who I belive are respected by the rest of the players, are beginning to take the leadership role that we've got to have...Every good team...EVERY GOOD TEAM, no matter how well coached, has players who are leaders. That was my point.
"That's all I got to say about that" Forrest Gump--famous Alabamian, and good hearted idiot--
I still think it's a positive that players, who I belive are respected by the rest of the players, are beginning to take the leadership role that we've got to have...Every good team...EVERY GOOD TEAM, no matter how well coached, has players who are leaders. That was my point.
"That's all I got to say about that" Forrest Gump--famous Alabamian, and good hearted idiot--
Rolltide...
I was mainly talking about our youth at Defense. I truly believe our offense will be alot better this year if we can just stay close in some of these games. Having 2 2nd year CB is not a good thing yet...but will be a great thing if they stick with them. Our 3 year players on the D-line is another main problem. So when I was talking about youth, I was talking about our CB & D-line. You are right about Sirmon, and I don't know what to say about him, we should just go with youth there too because he is so slow, but who knows... Anywayz, I am basically just upset how just last week against the Saints everyone was so excited and now all the fans are calling everyone out. If they are still playing like that towards our bye week, then we should be calling people out, but not yet.
I was mainly talking about our youth at Defense. I truly believe our offense will be alot better this year if we can just stay close in some of these games. Having 2 2nd year CB is not a good thing yet...but will be a great thing if they stick with them. Our 3 year players on the D-line is another main problem. So when I was talking about youth, I was talking about our CB & D-line. You are right about Sirmon, and I don't know what to say about him, we should just go with youth there too because he is so slow, but who knows... Anywayz, I am basically just upset how just last week against the Saints everyone was so excited and now all the fans are calling everyone out. If they are still playing like that towards our bye week, then we should be calling people out, but not yet.
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