Hey i love vince young and it is hard to imagine that lienart wouldn't at least be decent as a pro. But the obvious fact is that you only have a 50/50 chance with a QB at that spot and i'm nervous about it. And unless the guy is just so terrible(shuler, leaf) you know very soon he is not ever going to be good a guy like that can lead you down the path of darkness for years. Look at harrington and the lions. For years they have been waiting for that guy to get good and in the mean time have made no effort to get get another QB untill they got garcia as a stop gap last year. Now they might have to start all over again.
So trade down a few places if we can get some value there. Just a 2 spot move would bring what a 3rd and 5th rd pick? Maybe more? So here is what we do.
1.We make that trade and draft hawk. Linebacker problem solved!
2.We use our 2nd rd pick to draft omar jacobs. We use one of our 2 third rd picks(volek trade) or maYBE a 4th to get another QB. A croyle, pinegar or gradkowski perhaps. QB of the future solved!
3. That leaves our third through 5 rd picks to get value at safety, WR, O-line, another linebacker even another QB etc.
What is wrong with that? Look at many of the better QBs and where they came from. Delhomne, bulger, warner, volek and holcomb were not even drafted. Freotte was drafted in rd 7 the same year the redskins drafted shuler #1. Brunell was a 5th rd pick, brady a 6th rd pick. Drew brees was a 2nd rd pick as was rex grossman. Chris simms was a 3rd rd pick i think. That's a lot of servicable to pro bowl caliber QBs that were not 1st rd picks. So we bring in several QBs, draft picks and free agents and in the meantime we can better meet our other needs.
So trade down a few places if we can get some value there. Just a 2 spot move would bring what a 3rd and 5th rd pick? Maybe more? So here is what we do.
1.We make that trade and draft hawk. Linebacker problem solved!
2.We use our 2nd rd pick to draft omar jacobs. We use one of our 2 third rd picks(volek trade) or maYBE a 4th to get another QB. A croyle, pinegar or gradkowski perhaps. QB of the future solved!
3. That leaves our third through 5 rd picks to get value at safety, WR, O-line, another linebacker even another QB etc.
What is wrong with that? Look at many of the better QBs and where they came from. Delhomne, bulger, warner, volek and holcomb were not even drafted. Freotte was drafted in rd 7 the same year the redskins drafted shuler #1. Brunell was a 5th rd pick, brady a 6th rd pick. Drew brees was a 2nd rd pick as was rex grossman. Chris simms was a 3rd rd pick i think. That's a lot of servicable to pro bowl caliber QBs that were not 1st rd picks. So we bring in several QBs, draft picks and free agents and in the meantime we can better meet our other needs.
there is a 50/50 chance on qb's in the first found, but your chances go down even more after the first round. i mean sure, we could trade down for the next six years and take a qb in the second and third rounds and hope to stumble upon a steal, but its unlikely.
i'm nervous about it too, but it needs to be done either this year or next year. i'm not sure the prospects are much better next year than this year. brady quinn, is he a prodcut of the system? brian brohm, how is his knee recovering and will he even enter the draft? troy smith, does he have the arm strength and is he tall enough?
and rex grossman was a first round pick.
i'm nervous about it too, but it needs to be done either this year or next year. i'm not sure the prospects are much better next year than this year. brady quinn, is he a prodcut of the system? brian brohm, how is his knee recovering and will he even enter the draft? troy smith, does he have the arm strength and is he tall enough?
and rex grossman was a first round pick.
Should the Colts have traded down so they didn't have to take Peyton? Should the Bengals have traded down so they didn't have to take Palmer?
We have the #3 pick and a star QB who is getting older. There should be 1 of 2 franchise QBs on the board. Take a QB assuming they grade out...
We have the #3 pick and a star QB who is getting older. There should be 1 of 2 franchise QBs on the board. Take a QB assuming they grade out...
Bigtitan....starkiller...
Big titan, i'm still advocating we spend significant draft capital on QBs. Maybe even a 2nd and a 3rd rd pick. Drafting in those rds is not stumbling on a good player. You are just drafting 2 guys with the idea that one will be good.
Starkiller, your whole post has no merit because neither young or lienart are the same caliber prospects that palmer or manning were. That's the problem. Floyd reese said that in his post comparing young to mcnair. He said there are issues regarding youngs ability to adjust to the pro game. Mel kiper has said that lienart is not palmer's equal. Either player has a real strong arm and lienart had an nfl caliber team around him. We draft young, are we getting mcnair or andre ware?
Look i love vince young and am really more with you guys on drafting him. But he is not a can't miss prospect. Omar jacobs isn't either but the risk is less getting him.
Big titan, i'm still advocating we spend significant draft capital on QBs. Maybe even a 2nd and a 3rd rd pick. Drafting in those rds is not stumbling on a good player. You are just drafting 2 guys with the idea that one will be good.
Starkiller, your whole post has no merit because neither young or lienart are the same caliber prospects that palmer or manning were. That's the problem. Floyd reese said that in his post comparing young to mcnair. He said there are issues regarding youngs ability to adjust to the pro game. Mel kiper has said that lienart is not palmer's equal. Either player has a real strong arm and lienart had an nfl caliber team around him. We draft young, are we getting mcnair or andre ware?
Look i love vince young and am really more with you guys on drafting him. But he is not a can't miss prospect. Omar jacobs isn't either but the risk is less getting him.
RollTide said:
oh for the love of all things worthy of loving, can we please dispense with all the AJ / DJ talk. You'd think people would've learned the lesson last year.
LB is THICK this year. I see no reason whatsoever to use the 1st round pick on a LB. Some mocks have us scooping up D'Qwell Jackson in the 2nd, and I can deal with that. Many Lawson (who is currently a DE, but could play LB very easily) should be there in the 2nd. HE friggin dominated (beasted fools) at the Senior Bowl
EVEN IF we trade down, I still think we should target
A- D'Brickashaw Ferguson (OT)
B- DeAngelo Williams (RB)
C- Jay Cutler (QB)
D- Michael Huff (S)
E- Winston Justice (OT)
F- "Super" Mario Williams (DE) - the next "Freak" - best DE since Peppers
on defense the most pressing need is on End and at Safety. this team has shut down some decent backs ..... but couldn't shut down some of the worst QB's
Pass Rush and Coverage are bigger concerns
not trying to step on your toes RT
but, I'd much rather take a chance on Vince
I'd freaking hate it if we passed on that cat
it's VERY possible that he can be everything that McNair ever was
I'd freaking hate it if we passed on that cat
it's VERY possible that he can be everything that McNair ever was
You don't have to try Puckdaddy...It's easy. My only concern is wondering what might have been when the Jets or somebody are in the SB w/ VY and he's like League MVP or something. That would suck.Puck said:
OT: Puck, I can't keep up with your signiture...dear God.
Well I think we as fans have to resign ourselves to the fact that we don't know enough about each propsect to know what is the "smart" thing to do.
If gametape shows that Young has a high risk of turning out like Akili Smith or Ware, the clever thing is to trade down or pick Brick or Leinart or whoever else is an option. If however gametape shows that he might be the next McNair or an upgraded Mike Vick, we should grab him.
The only fans that have seen enough of Young to make an informed choice are Longhorns fans and thus their opinion doesn't count.
If gametape shows that Young has a high risk of turning out like Akili Smith or Ware, the clever thing is to trade down or pick Brick or Leinart or whoever else is an option. If however gametape shows that he might be the next McNair or an upgraded Mike Vick, we should grab him.
The only fans that have seen enough of Young to make an informed choice are Longhorns fans and thus their opinion doesn't count.
i'll agree that safety is a big need, but i wouldnt put it above linebacker. our speed at linebacker is downright bad.Puck said:
we wouldnt be able to trade down too far to get mario williams. the packer will take him or aj hawk.
The only fans that have seen enough of Young to make an informed choice are Longhorns fans and thus their opinion doesn't count.[/QUOTE said:
bigtitan53279 said:
true
but how important (in the grand scheme of things) is speed a LB?
LB speed helps most in run defense, right ?
while we weren't al that great in stopping the run, we did it better than stopping the pass.
again.....
LB is a deep position this year
and Tide even brought up a few FA's that might be available
Cato June would be ideal
and in the draft :
guys like Thomas Howard runs a 4.47 - how's that for speed? and could be had cheap. Him and D'Qwell would be fine additions
one's an OLB and the other is an ILB
LB Problem solved
AJ Hawk is one of those guys i've heard talk that he won't be as much of an impact player at the next level as he was at OSU
I'm not trying to knock Hawk, but I don't think he's what we need to spend our 1st round pick on
we MUST address the QB this year
the sooner the better
LB is a deep position this year
and Tide even brought up a few FA's that might be available
Cato June would be ideal
and in the draft :
guys like Thomas Howard runs a 4.47 - how's that for speed? and could be had cheap. Him and D'Qwell would be fine additions
one's an OLB and the other is an ILB
LB Problem solved
AJ Hawk is one of those guys i've heard talk that he won't be as much of an impact player at the next level as he was at OSU
I'm not trying to knock Hawk, but I don't think he's what we need to spend our 1st round pick on
we MUST address the QB this year
the sooner the better
I disagreeVigsted said:
I think anyone who watched the last 2 Rose Bowls would be eligible to make informed decisions about Young
Puck said:
2 games is awefully little to gauge a players future career in the NFL...
And about the Longhorns fans, what I meant was that they would obviously be biased and would not be likely to give an honest, objective opinion.
Add the OSU-TX game and Vince's numbers and improvement from last year to this year, and anyone should realize that this guy has the potential to be a beast in the NFLVigsted said:
Vigsted said:
oh for heavens sake
there's no need to nit pick here
you made a bad call saying UT fans opinions didn't count
VY played like a world beater in the 2 games that counted in his career. that's plenty enough to gauge for me
if it's not for you, that's fine
but if this guy can play like that in the playoffs / bowls, then why should it matter if he doens't play like Peyton the rest of the time
I would love to see what Chow can do with VY..a great QB coach, a great athlete, some time to develop, I can get excited about that.. but this year we have to get a better running game and run defense...
Puck,,,others
I''m not advocating trading up more than 1 or 2 spots. 3 at the absolute most. We want to still get a stud player and we want to be at least 90% sure that player will be available. I wouldn't want us to trade down significantly or else we can't determine how it will go. We want to be able to get the player we want. If we trade down to the 5th pick for example we can be almost 100% sure that hawk will be there and mario williams would be there. If one those guys is who we want.
There are 2 main reasons for trading up.
1. We can get a higher value player. Meaning a player who has a higher chance at success at his position than young might have at his.
2. We trade up to get extra draft picks to better meet all our needs.
If we can't get better value with the 4th or 5th pick then why do it? That's why i would be against trading down to get another QB(cutler) or runningback where the risk level for failure is high. OTs are very reliable in the draft. Probably the most reliable position in the draft. You like mario williams? Fine because almost all the absolute best DEs over the last 20 years were drafted in rd one. He would be available.
I''m not advocating trading up more than 1 or 2 spots. 3 at the absolute most. We want to still get a stud player and we want to be at least 90% sure that player will be available. I wouldn't want us to trade down significantly or else we can't determine how it will go. We want to be able to get the player we want. If we trade down to the 5th pick for example we can be almost 100% sure that hawk will be there and mario williams would be there. If one those guys is who we want.
There are 2 main reasons for trading up.
1. We can get a higher value player. Meaning a player who has a higher chance at success at his position than young might have at his.
2. We trade up to get extra draft picks to better meet all our needs.
If we can't get better value with the 4th or 5th pick then why do it? That's why i would be against trading down to get another QB(cutler) or runningback where the risk level for failure is high. OTs are very reliable in the draft. Probably the most reliable position in the draft. You like mario williams? Fine because almost all the absolute best DEs over the last 20 years were drafted in rd one. He would be available.
Yes I likes me some Super Mario Williams, but I also like his counterpart - Manny Lawson who is capable of switching to LB (could play both) - granted he's more suited for a 3-4
I think the "next tier" of RB's (DeAngelo / LenDale) have a better shot at success in the pros than Bush (initially)
I guess my point is that LB (both OLB and ILB) depth in this draft is THICK, while QB is not
I think the "next tier" of RB's (DeAngelo / LenDale) have a better shot at success in the pros than Bush (initially)
I guess my point is that LB (both OLB and ILB) depth in this draft is THICK, while QB is not
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