like us and jared cook!
I love how everyone just assumes Warford will be there for the taking in the second. What you guys don't think other teams have scouts too? Believe me they know about Warford and there are many teams who desperately need Guard help. Take Chance or Cooper at 10 or 15-17 if you can find a trade partner and be done with it. No more of this "well maybe we can find a guy who is slightly worse later". You're in a prime position to take the guy you've wanted all along and he's guaranteed to make pro bowls playing for you. Stop trying to get cute and take your guy.
And please stop using this stupid "value" argument like value isn't subjective to a team's needs/strengths. Right now the G's are our best value pick.
And please stop using this stupid "value" argument like value isn't subjective to a team's needs/strengths. Right now the G's are our best value pick.
I asked for a G myself. But are you still going to trust him when he takes a DB this year?
I would love Head or any other poster who agrees with him to tell us why Cooper is better for us than Warmack. If it is a faster guard to block for CJ keep in mind that CJ might not be here in 2014 while the guard we draft will be here for 5 years or much longer.
There is no correlation between best 40 time and best guard. There is no such thing!
These are the player rankings on nfl.com. Not sure who or what these rankings are based on i basically agree with them. I would rank Fluker higher and i do think Cooper is a slightly better prospect than Warford.
Warmack-95.9
Joekel-94.3
Fisher-93.3
Johnson-92.9
Warford-88.3
Cooper-86.9
Fluker-85.5
Now i would rate Cooper and Fluker around 90 above Warford but who can seriously say that if Warmack is on the board he would not be the BPA or the BA-olinemen?
You know who is interested in DJ Fluker? Steelers and Ravens. Figures.
There is no correlation between best 40 time and best guard. There is no such thing!
These are the player rankings on nfl.com. Not sure who or what these rankings are based on i basically agree with them. I would rank Fluker higher and i do think Cooper is a slightly better prospect than Warford.
Warmack-95.9
Joekel-94.3
Fisher-93.3
Johnson-92.9
Warford-88.3
Cooper-86.9
Fluker-85.5
Now i would rate Cooper and Fluker around 90 above Warford but who can seriously say that if Warmack is on the board he would not be the BPA or the BA-olinemen?
You know who is interested in DJ Fluker? Steelers and Ravens. Figures.
Everyone who says OGs shouldn't be taken top 10 must also consider that this draft is very weak at the top. So in a year where the top is loaded with talent then their wouldn't be much talk about taking OGs at 10, but in this draft the OGs grade out to about the 10th spot.
Ruston just needs to sit back and see who falls to us and see if anyone wants to trade up. Trust your board and take the BPA.
Ruston just needs to sit back and see who falls to us and see if anyone wants to trade up. Trust your board and take the BPA.
No matter how the draft goes Warmack would be the BPA if he is still on the board at 10. According to the nfl combine site he is the top prospect in the whole draft!
They have Cooper ranked 24th. Deandre Hopkins is rated higher than Cooper.
Not that these rankings are gospel but if you could get Warmack at 10 and Hopkins at 39 would not that be the ultimate player value? That's where i would go and of they trade down a handful of spots then Fluker would be the guy i would get.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-grade
Really? So you know how the first nine picks are going to pan out?
If Ansah, Jordan, Floyd, Milliner, and Star all fall and are available is it still the best value pick?
Good point and consider that in the past, before the new CBA, teams had to pay out a boat load of money to top 10 picks which is one big reason OGs were not taken over QBs, OTs and DL guys. So certain positions that didn't see much action early in the draft in the past might have more appeal now.
Our best scenario trading back would be with Miami if they want to land a LT ahead of SD. We wouldn't get a huge amount in that trade, a 3rd or 4th, but we also wouldn't really miss out on the guy we wanted since we know Miami is going LT. In fact we could take Lane Johnson if it came down to it and then see who the highest bidder might be if it came down to it. SD might offer us a 4th for the guy.
Yes it would seem better. Would it actually be better? A good skill player outdoes a good guard in "seems" every time.
If that's accurate imagine what he could do for Chris Johnson and the offense.
I've stated in other threads that if those guys fall to us we will take them instead of Chance and I wouldn't have a problem. However, I don't believe any of those guys will make it to us so my comment is predicated on that.
I've explained to you many times why Cooper would be better for us than Warmack. It's just that you're not open to that possibility at all. I've made many different arguments rooted in facts and you didn't accept any of them. You seem pretty set in your opinion.
You can't afford not to take Warmack. I wish we were in a position to do what we like but the fact is we still have a hole at G. The only other position I could picture us going would be CB and the only way they pick one over Warmack is if Milliner is still there which we know is probably not the case. You never pass up a bonified, for sure Pro Bowler especially in a position of need. They have to fix this offense so we can move the chains with our run game and I believe the D will come along with more time to breathe. The last thing we need to happen is to pass on the this guy then our first round pick be a bust and end up missing on one of the top lineman. Warford could be gone by our second pick and then what? Our offense still doesn't work. No we don't have that convenience.
We got Levitre and some scrubs for depth. That means the line is fixed now. People have already forgotten what our line was like last season.
What i read of your analysis was wrong.
You claim cooper is just as good a run blocker as Warmack. No he is not. Warmack shocks defenders and dominates them more. Warmack is without any doubt a better short yardage blocker.He is better at down blocks and combo blocks.
You claim Cooper has better foot work, no he doesn't. No offensive lineman in this draft has better foot work than Chance Warmack.
People call Warmack slow and fat but he manages to get his head out in front of defenders on reach blocks even when they are in the gap on the side the play is going.
Warmack gets to the next level as good as Cooper or any other guard in this draft and when he make contact with a linebacker at the next level he dominates the action like no other player.
Why is Warmack the top rated player on several boards? He is in the top 10 on almost every single site.
If Warmack is there when we pick he will without any doubt be the best player on the board.
You claim cooper is just as good a run blocker as Warmack. No he is not. Warmack shocks defenders and dominates them more. Warmack is without any doubt a better short yardage blocker.He is better at down blocks and combo blocks.
You claim Cooper has better foot work, no he doesn't. No offensive lineman in this draft has better foot work than Chance Warmack.
People call Warmack slow and fat but he manages to get his head out in front of defenders on reach blocks even when they are in the gap on the side the play is going.
Warmack gets to the next level as good as Cooper or any other guard in this draft and when he make contact with a linebacker at the next level he dominates the action like no other player.
Why is Warmack the top rated player on several boards? He is in the top 10 on almost every single site.
If Warmack is there when we pick he will without any doubt be the best player on the board.
Not sure how reliable bleacher report is but they rate Velasco as the 11th best center in the league and Turner the 13th ranked center. So at least for the next couple of years we are ok at that position.
Turner is not ranked as a guard but they rank Spencer as the 53rd best guard. Bench material basically. Leroy Harris was ranked 57th so Spencer is basically Harris part deux.
Now one could argue that Velasco is ok at center and whomever wins the starting job at RG between Turner, Spencer and Amano would be ok. We basically have 4 guys with starting experience fighting for 2 starting spots and all 4 guys should be hungry enough. Spencer as a former 1st rd pick theoretically could play at a higher level then he has in the past.We know what Harris could do and decided we
Cooper's versatility and ability to play center means little to me since we already have several guys who have started at both guard and center in the NFL. Amano, Turner and Spencer have all started at both positions.
What would really be helpful to us would be a guy who can compete for that starting RG spot but who could also play OT for us. That guy is Fluker.
Turner is not ranked as a guard but they rank Spencer as the 53rd best guard. Bench material basically. Leroy Harris was ranked 57th so Spencer is basically Harris part deux.
Now one could argue that Velasco is ok at center and whomever wins the starting job at RG between Turner, Spencer and Amano would be ok. We basically have 4 guys with starting experience fighting for 2 starting spots and all 4 guys should be hungry enough. Spencer as a former 1st rd pick theoretically could play at a higher level then he has in the past.We know what Harris could do and decided we
Cooper's versatility and ability to play center means little to me since we already have several guys who have started at both guard and center in the NFL. Amano, Turner and Spencer have all started at both positions.
What would really be helpful to us would be a guy who can compete for that starting RG spot but who could also play OT for us. That guy is Fluker.
See that's the thing. It's not just me that disagrees with you. Many of the most respected analysts and scouts have explicitly said that Cooper has better feet and gets to the next level much better than Warmack. Not only but it's on tape whether you want to see it or not. Teams were raving about Cooper's pro day work out for a reason. And by the way, many mock drafts both online and on NFL network have had Cooper going before Warmack. In fact there is a thread on this very forum that shows just how many analysts have us taking Cooper at #10 with Warmack still on the board.
This is not conjecture, these are facts that have surfaced but they're inconvenient to your position so you dismiss or ignore them. You saying that I am wrong, and using just your own opinion as proof doesn't make you any more right than I. Tape doesn't lie and Cooper doesn't get beat anymore than Warmack does. Maybe Warmack drives his guy 2-3 yards further but does that really matter when Cooper is just as effective and is able to not only drive the guy but wall him off as well?Show me the tape where Cooper is getting dominated routinely and I'll shut up. Go ahead, I'll wait.
I would get your outrage if Cooper was some weakling who was routinely getting driven back into the QB or something but that doesn't happen. In fact I saw that happen to Chance(It's in the LSU tape). Care to address that? Look man, I've made solid arguments, you don't wanna hear it. It's ok we all have our opinions. I know you won't back down and neither will I but at least don't pretend people haven't made the Pro-Cooper argument to you, it's not true.
I would hardly say the dropoff is minimal. But I would agree that dropoff is mucher bigger from Star to the 2nd round DL.
Name one major scouting website that rates Cooper better than Warmack.
Your point about Cooper walling off a guy being as effective as Warmack blowing a guy off the line of scrimmage is laughable. You admit he is more dominant but argue he is not more effective.
""""Maybe Warmack drives his guy 2-3 yards further but does that really matter when Cooper is just as effective and is able to not only drive the guy but wall him off as well?S"""
Have you ever played on the offensive line before? Of course pushing the defensive player 2 yards further is more effective. My god!
You ask if Cooper ever gets dominated. Is that the criteria for drafting a guy 10th? He does not get dominated?
When Warmack or Fluker block down on a guy or block down on a double team they erase the guy from the hole. They don't just get a stand off next to the hole. They cave in the whole side at times. That's why they are better prospects. That's why i want one of them on our team.
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