rcarie.......big titan...
rcarie, the top reserves on this team were NOT rookies or 2nd year players either. Our backup QB was a 6th year player, our backup RB a 5th year player. Our top linebacker off the bench was a 4th year player. Our 2 rookie corners were backed up by a 4th year player and a third year player.
Bigtitan, i would disagree with you on what constitutes a "big part". I guess anyone who plays at all has played a "big" role according to you.
The 4th DT(Clauss) is hardly playing a big role.
I would also disagree with waddell who began the year as our #3 nickel and #4 corner. Waddell only started one game all year at nickel so his contribution was hardly "big".
As for scaife he wasn't forced into a role he wasn't ready for he played a lot simply because he was good. The scaife situation was a positive thing not some young player who was too clueless and inexperienced to play well. Never the less scaife was still only our #3 TE and represents only 25% of titght end catches this year. . Not "Big".
I'll agree on the other 9 but that's 9 players who significantly contributed out of a roster of over 50. There were 14 starting position players on this team in their 4th season or beyond. For every bironas there is some guy who has been here forever like hentrich who was a 12 year guy.
Of the 9 players who did have larger roles on the team 5 are rookies. That is no excuse in any shape and form for a team to go 4-12 when half of our games were against the worst teams in the league. In fact half our wins came against the absolute worst team in the league. A half baked high school coach could have gotten 4 wins out of that team.
rcarie, the top reserves on this team were NOT rookies or 2nd year players either. Our backup QB was a 6th year player, our backup RB a 5th year player. Our top linebacker off the bench was a 4th year player. Our 2 rookie corners were backed up by a 4th year player and a third year player.
Bigtitan, i would disagree with you on what constitutes a "big part". I guess anyone who plays at all has played a "big" role according to you.
The 4th DT(Clauss) is hardly playing a big role.
I would also disagree with waddell who began the year as our #3 nickel and #4 corner. Waddell only started one game all year at nickel so his contribution was hardly "big".
As for scaife he wasn't forced into a role he wasn't ready for he played a lot simply because he was good. The scaife situation was a positive thing not some young player who was too clueless and inexperienced to play well. Never the less scaife was still only our #3 TE and represents only 25% of titght end catches this year. . Not "Big".
I'll agree on the other 9 but that's 9 players who significantly contributed out of a roster of over 50. There were 14 starting position players on this team in their 4th season or beyond. For every bironas there is some guy who has been here forever like hentrich who was a 12 year guy.
Of the 9 players who did have larger roles on the team 5 are rookies. That is no excuse in any shape and form for a team to go 4-12 when half of our games were against the worst teams in the league. In fact half our wins came against the absolute worst team in the league. A half baked high school coach could have gotten 4 wins out of that team.
The rookies were actually one of the few highlights this year. The veterans were the ones stinkin' the place up.
RollTide said:
No. Having 1 really great player and 1 really bad player, is not the same as having 2 average/good players (not related to our actual situation).
Secondly, I think you're deluding yourself by looking at the age of the backups. There is a reason why players are backups and it has nothing to do with their age. You also need to look at the age distribution across the different positions. Clearly WR and DB was very young and their play was accordlingy, however I will give you that the poor play of our O-line and linebackers can not be blamed on youth.
I kinda give the QB's and RB's a pass because they really suffer from poor O-line play, so it's not fair to put too much blame on them.
Our D-line I thought did a good job and so did our TE's, regardless of age.
Vigsted...
Let's stick with the basic premise here. The premise is that the titans were horrible this season because we had too many yutes(joe pesci for youths) in significant roles. Yes or no?
The reason i brought up the age of backup players is because a poster suggested that while many of our yutes didn't start they played key backup roles. That was not true. Yes we had 2 rookie CBs but not because they were hurried into duty due to injury to better more experienced players but because the more experienced players sucked. Doesn't that defy that whole premise? We could have had fewer yutes playing just let woolfolk and beckham start at corner. That would have increased the experience but would we have been better? No, which proves my point not theirs.
And no our d-line did not do well. The titans were 22nd in the league against the run and had little inside pass rush. 2nd year players like odom and starks didn't improve at all from their rookie years. I can't imagine how horrible that defense would have been without KVB.
Let's stick with the basic premise here. The premise is that the titans were horrible this season because we had too many yutes(joe pesci for youths) in significant roles. Yes or no?
The reason i brought up the age of backup players is because a poster suggested that while many of our yutes didn't start they played key backup roles. That was not true. Yes we had 2 rookie CBs but not because they were hurried into duty due to injury to better more experienced players but because the more experienced players sucked. Doesn't that defy that whole premise? We could have had fewer yutes playing just let woolfolk and beckham start at corner. That would have increased the experience but would we have been better? No, which proves my point not theirs.
And no our d-line did not do well. The titans were 22nd in the league against the run and had little inside pass rush. 2nd year players like odom and starks didn't improve at all from their rookie years. I can't imagine how horrible that defense would have been without KVB.
You can't really judge line play by statistics like that. Linemen generally don't make a ton of plays, but they prevent a lot of plays from happening. If Haynesworth is eating up two blocks on every play to give a linebacker a better shot at making one, then he is playing well...
Also, I thought Odom made a lot of big plays this year. The off tackle spot is probably our weakest spot, but Starks is still really young.
Also, I thought Odom made a lot of big plays this year. The off tackle spot is probably our weakest spot, but Starks is still really young.
Tide, no one is saying that youth is the only reason that the Titans lost. No one is even saying that it was the main reason. But it's blatantly obvious that it was a factor. You even admitted as much above.RollTide said:
Starkiller said:
The Pats are in the Playoffs and looking to make another run to the SB. Their defense is playing lights out right now with this 5th string rookie CB. We on the other hand don't manage the CAP well enough to even keep one of our starting CBs and our 1st round pick a couple of years ago might not make the Pats roster at CB.
Starkiller said:
CAP management has been a problem along with dumb draft choices. And no, guuys lately have not developed into productive players unless you want to argue that guys like Beckham, Gardner, Woolfolk, Calico, Nickey and Reynolds are really contributing. To boot Reese thinks he is some kind of genious for bringing in KVB but he didn't offer a bonus year on KVBs contract so we have the thrill of possibly seeing another quality player leave in the offseason (I wonder if he will go to a real contender, I would). You were against keeping Kassel last year which has proven to be a good perspective but what stud MLB do we have "developed" to take his place? I don't think his clone Reynolds is anything to get excited about. We entered this season with vets at C, LB, OL and QB. The play we got from those postions is the main reason why we were 4-12 and picking #3 in the draft (3rd worst team in the NFL). The sad thing is we don't have anyone ready to step up into those roles with the exception of a few unproven OL meaning we are in terrible shape entering this draft. The coaching down the stretch was ridiculously stupid in that we didn't get Stewart, Amano and Bell alot more work considering Hartwig, Olsen and Pillar were as worthless a **** on a boar hog. With all the holes to fill, not to mention we will have no choice but to use our #3 pick on a QB because McNair is all but finished I am having a hard time being overly optimistic right now.
Yet according to you they managed the CAP well?
Oh, by the way the Pats have lost two of their OL to injury, one of them their LT. They have two rookies starting on their OL. In Nashville that would be a good excuse to stink up the place but in New England they don't make excuses.
I absolutely think the biggest problem with this team is the lack of talent, not youth. But youth does figure in, because players obviously get better over time.
To me, though, a team like the Patriots can get by with a few young players starting because they are surrounded by proven veterans. It's easy to patch gaps with inexperienced guys when the gaps aren't huge. Look at their starting lineup. They have tons of veterans, not to mention some proven young players. A rookie here or there that has been pressed into service hurt them, but they can compensate to protect those weak spots. Plus, 1 of the 3 rookies they are starting is a 1st rounder at guard, so he's hardly a real weak spot (much like Roos for us).
The Titans, meanwhile, are playing a bunch of young players and have very few veterans. We have huge gaps and our rookies can't be protected. Are our sucky safeties helping to protect Pacman or Hill?
I don't blame cap management. Yes, that's what got them into this situation, but the alternative was to not stay a contender for 6 years running. They knew what they were doing. This is just the price you pay for trying to win. Eventually, you have to pay the piper.
To me, though, a team like the Patriots can get by with a few young players starting because they are surrounded by proven veterans. It's easy to patch gaps with inexperienced guys when the gaps aren't huge. Look at their starting lineup. They have tons of veterans, not to mention some proven young players. A rookie here or there that has been pressed into service hurt them, but they can compensate to protect those weak spots. Plus, 1 of the 3 rookies they are starting is a 1st rounder at guard, so he's hardly a real weak spot (much like Roos for us).
The Titans, meanwhile, are playing a bunch of young players and have very few veterans. We have huge gaps and our rookies can't be protected. Are our sucky safeties helping to protect Pacman or Hill?
I don't blame cap management. Yes, that's what got them into this situation, but the alternative was to not stay a contender for 6 years running. They knew what they were doing. This is just the price you pay for trying to win. Eventually, you have to pay the piper.
Starkiller said:
Ok, lost Rodney Harrison very early, has been replaced by a Rookie free-agent(Michael Stone). Lost 5 corners, forcing rookie Ellis Hobbs into the fray. Lost starting LT and Left Guard very early, throwing two ROOKIES into the starting lineup on the speed side of the line in Kaczsur and Mankins. You tell me that those aren't important positions.
Soxcat is right, anything like this for the Titans and it's an excuse, but not for any other team. Excuses are like a$$holes, they all stink, and i'm sick of this one. The #1 reason we sucked this year has got to be COACHING, you can't tell me that we don't have talented players, we don't have coaches getting the most out of our potentially talented players. We have a Defensive Coord who has never even met his players, doesn't know how to put them in a postion to succeed and it is starting to poison the attitude of this whole franchise. I have never seen a team become so worthless in such a short period of time, and it starts with the guys instilling work habits and attitude in our players, not the players themselves, because if you watch them at all, they don't have any urgency or aggression. The team continues to regress.
Don't forget our kicker was a rookie too!
Blame it on the kicker!
Blame it on the kicker!
Look, the Patriots took a significant hit when they lost guys like Harrison, Light, and their CBs. Their secondary isn't nearly what it was, and their OLine took a hit. And it shows in their results. They are clearly not as good as previous years. They have a 3-3 record against this year's playoff teams (if you incliude the win last week against JAX). And they got "hot" against a bunch of non-playoff teams.
But their front 7 on defense is still great and loaded with vets. And their skill players on offense haven't changed.
But their front 7 on defense is still great and loaded with vets. And their skill players on offense haven't changed.
and they havent been able to run the ball worth a damn this year, which is why brady led the league in passing yards.Soxcat said:
Coming off the bench:RollTide said:
Defense
Odom
Clauss
Scholbel
R. Reynolds
C. Spencer
Waddell
R. Gargner
Offense
Payton
Small
Bell
Stewart
Amano
Loper
Scaife
Guenther
All of these players are in ther 1st or 2nd year and that's not counting starters. Are you watching another team or something? This also leaves out special teams.... If you don't think youth has anything to do with us sucking you need to Roll another one.
rcarie...
That's the dumbest post yet on this thread. I was talking about TOP reserves, guys who actually play a lot. Guys who may have to start on occasion like your backup QB. How in the hell was gardner a top reserve? He played all year behind about 6 guys. If pacman gets kicked out of the game beckham replaces him NOT gardner.
Clauss was our #4 DT. #4!
Schobel wasn't even active for half the games. Is that a joke? I'm talking about guys you rely on to win games not guys barely on the damn team!
Spencer and reynolds are just special teams players. Boiman was our top backup linebacker and you know that.
Loper never played, not even one game, stewart never played, not even a single game, guenther hardly played. Are you saying they are the reason we sucked this year when they hardly saw action? Payton was third string all year! He played behind a third year back and a 5th year back and your blaming his inexperience for ther titans woes.
OJ small? OJ small? He was a reason we sucked? He only played in the last 2 games. Oh yes the titans missed the playoff this year because OJ small was too young to perform.
As for special teams i didn't know that players needed 5-6 years nfl experience to play there. Wasn't special teams one of our positive aspects of the team anyway? And bo scaife is hardly the reason we lost either. He was a positive note in a sour season.
I guess it makes too much sense to assume the offensive line sucked because veterans like hartwig-olson-piller-hopkins didn't play well. You would rather blame it on guys who barely played at all. Are you nuts?:sad2:
That's the dumbest post yet on this thread. I was talking about TOP reserves, guys who actually play a lot. Guys who may have to start on occasion like your backup QB. How in the hell was gardner a top reserve? He played all year behind about 6 guys. If pacman gets kicked out of the game beckham replaces him NOT gardner.
Clauss was our #4 DT. #4!
Schobel wasn't even active for half the games. Is that a joke? I'm talking about guys you rely on to win games not guys barely on the damn team!
Spencer and reynolds are just special teams players. Boiman was our top backup linebacker and you know that.
Loper never played, not even one game, stewart never played, not even a single game, guenther hardly played. Are you saying they are the reason we sucked this year when they hardly saw action? Payton was third string all year! He played behind a third year back and a 5th year back and your blaming his inexperience for ther titans woes.
OJ small? OJ small? He was a reason we sucked? He only played in the last 2 games. Oh yes the titans missed the playoff this year because OJ small was too young to perform.
As for special teams i didn't know that players needed 5-6 years nfl experience to play there. Wasn't special teams one of our positive aspects of the team anyway? And bo scaife is hardly the reason we lost either. He was a positive note in a sour season.
I guess it makes too much sense to assume the offensive line sucked because veterans like hartwig-olson-piller-hopkins didn't play well. You would rather blame it on guys who barely played at all. Are you nuts?:sad2:
Starkiller...
The pats started 45 different starters and still went 11-5 and won a playoff game. It's the injury factor that is at the heart of my complaint. Normally you have problems with young players because a veteran starter goes down and has to be replaced by a young player who may not be ready. May not have the experience. At the same problem that young player us usually backed up by a less talented and sometimes even younger player.
How often did that happen to us this year? Never? Name one. When we began this year we had a veteran player at almost every single position! The rookies that did play this year did so because they were better than the more seasoned guy in front of them. Maybe your lack of talent argument is more valid.
The injury problem did happen to us in 2004 which provided plenty of playing opportunities for guys like odom, la boy, starks, waddell, gardner, bell troupe. Yet all those guys were too young to play well this year? Come on!
What more could a team ask for. 4 veteran offensive lineman in their third season together as a unit. An 11 year starting QB backed up by a 6 year guy. How many teams have that? All three starting linebackers were veterans. Both starting safeties were veterans. Our starting corners as the season began were veterans. Our two starting WR we began the year with were veterans. A 6 year starting TE, a third and 5th year pair of runningbacks both with 1000 yard seasons under their belts. If the team sucked this year it was because of the veterans!
The pats started 45 different starters and still went 11-5 and won a playoff game. It's the injury factor that is at the heart of my complaint. Normally you have problems with young players because a veteran starter goes down and has to be replaced by a young player who may not be ready. May not have the experience. At the same problem that young player us usually backed up by a less talented and sometimes even younger player.
How often did that happen to us this year? Never? Name one. When we began this year we had a veteran player at almost every single position! The rookies that did play this year did so because they were better than the more seasoned guy in front of them. Maybe your lack of talent argument is more valid.
The injury problem did happen to us in 2004 which provided plenty of playing opportunities for guys like odom, la boy, starks, waddell, gardner, bell troupe. Yet all those guys were too young to play well this year? Come on!
What more could a team ask for. 4 veteran offensive lineman in their third season together as a unit. An 11 year starting QB backed up by a 6 year guy. How many teams have that? All three starting linebackers were veterans. Both starting safeties were veterans. Our starting corners as the season began were veterans. Our two starting WR we began the year with were veterans. A 6 year starting TE, a third and 5th year pair of runningbacks both with 1000 yard seasons under their belts. If the team sucked this year it was because of the veterans!
Rolltide
Point to a single post on this message board by any reputable poster who says that the veterans played well enough in 2005...
I'm not sure why you are still trying to argue with me on this issue (other than perhaps 2nd nature). You already agreed with me that youth was, in fact, an issue. And I've already said that youth was neither the only problem nor the main one. So which specific point(s) that I've made are you taking issue with???
Point to a single post on this message board by any reputable poster who says that the veterans played well enough in 2005...
I'm not sure why you are still trying to argue with me on this issue (other than perhaps 2nd nature). You already agreed with me that youth was, in fact, an issue. And I've already said that youth was neither the only problem nor the main one. So which specific point(s) that I've made are you taking issue with???
Something to chew on...
The tennessee titans had 14 starting players with 4 or more years experience in 2005. 15 if you count hentrich. Those 15 veterans combined, COMBINED missed just 10 games this year.
When an entire team of veterans is healthy and plays that poorly there is one guy who needs to take the blame.
The head coach, Jeff fisher.
Starkiller i'm glad you fianlly agree with me. Thank you buddy, i knew you would come around.
The tennessee titans had 14 starting players with 4 or more years experience in 2005. 15 if you count hentrich. Those 15 veterans combined, COMBINED missed just 10 games this year.
When an entire team of veterans is healthy and plays that poorly there is one guy who needs to take the blame.
The head coach, Jeff fisher.
Starkiller i'm glad you fianlly agree with me. Thank you buddy, i knew you would come around.
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