And I did watch the Rose Bowl and 2 things:
1) USC's defence is not as talented as the South team in the Senior Bowl.
2) Vince Young didn't win by being a perfect passer, he won using his feet. But in the NFL the defences are so much faster, it won't be enough to rely on just that (again ask Vick). 30/40 for 267 yards 0 int and 0 td's doesn't really impress me I'm afraid. Sure it's a great completion rate, but a 6.7 avg is a little low.
1) USC's defence is not as talented as the South team in the Senior Bowl.
2) Vince Young didn't win by being a perfect passer, he won using his feet. But in the NFL the defences are so much faster, it won't be enough to rely on just that (again ask Vick). 30/40 for 267 yards 0 int and 0 td's doesn't really impress me I'm afraid. Sure it's a great completion rate, but a 6.7 avg is a little low.
If this is true...(Young's lack of passing skills), then why would the Lions want to move up and draft him?Vigsted said:
SEC 330 BIPOLAR said:
Because Matt Millen is certifiable and wants the next Mike Vick.
) Seriously though, my point is that I don't think there's that big a difference between the two. But if the Lion's think Vince Young or Cutler (or Leinart should Houston take Young) is better would they be willing to trade. And could we still get whomever is left if we did trade?
Honestly, I think the Saints are in a great position to move down. If Leinart drops in teams' eyes, they could trade down a bit and still take him to help the move to LA in the future. Plus, they are guaranteed to have either Bush or Young still on the board if they are considered the clear top picks (which I think they will be).
If Young is still there and the Lions want him, they would have to move up there or risk the Titans talking him 3rd.
If Young is still there and the Lions want him, they would have to move up there or risk the Titans talking him 3rd.
Seriously, let's look at this objectively.
I thought I was pretty clear that I agreed with that. You said Cutler should be on the same level as Young. I told you why he shouldn't. Success in college IS a factor. Hell, why don't we just draft a major league pitcher to come play football ? He has a great arm !
All good points but you still admit Young is about as good as Cutler without his mobility which is all I'm saying.
I don't get it. Are you grouping Brooks and Vick in the same group because they're black or something ? Roethlesberger can move it big time and Brooks rarely runs. Look back at some of the archived previews of him before the draft. He was a big time athlete with a big arm, much like they're saying about Young right now. There are plenty of pocket passers who bust also... there are just far more pocket passers overall so it stands to reason that more of them will succeed.
Akili Smith had one good year... Vince Young has had two good years and an excellent year. Akili Smith also didn't play in the Big 12. I don't really see where your comparison is. Akili Smith couldn't run like Young. He wasn't the leader Young is.
Eric Crouch ? He turned the NFL down by choice iirc. I think he was drafted in the 3rd round as a safety.
1) Are you kidding me ? Texas' offense is not as talented as the players Cutler was playing with either lol.
2) He made many plays with his feet. Many of those were designed runs as well. 30/40 for 267 is not impressive ? He was practically flawless (running as well as throwing) with no big name receivers or running game to speak of.
Like SK said... the jury's still out about who will turn out to be the better pro. All we can do is take our best educated guess like everyone else, but part of that guess involves looking at what they have done over the past three or four seasons on the field. Young clearly has a large lead over Cutler in that aspect.
I thought I was pretty clear that I agreed with that. You said Cutler should be on the same level as Young. I told you why he shouldn't. Success in college IS a factor. Hell, why don't we just draft a major league pitcher to come play football ? He has a great arm !
All good points but you still admit Young is about as good as Cutler without his mobility which is all I'm saying.
I don't get it. Are you grouping Brooks and Vick in the same group because they're black or something ? Roethlesberger can move it big time and Brooks rarely runs. Look back at some of the archived previews of him before the draft. He was a big time athlete with a big arm, much like they're saying about Young right now. There are plenty of pocket passers who bust also... there are just far more pocket passers overall so it stands to reason that more of them will succeed.
Akili Smith had one good year... Vince Young has had two good years and an excellent year. Akili Smith also didn't play in the Big 12. I don't really see where your comparison is. Akili Smith couldn't run like Young. He wasn't the leader Young is.
Eric Crouch ? He turned the NFL down by choice iirc. I think he was drafted in the 3rd round as a safety.
1) Are you kidding me ? Texas' offense is not as talented as the players Cutler was playing with either lol.
2) He made many plays with his feet. Many of those were designed runs as well. 30/40 for 267 is not impressive ? He was practically flawless (running as well as throwing) with no big name receivers or running game to speak of.
Like SK said... the jury's still out about who will turn out to be the better pro. All we can do is take our best educated guess like everyone else, but part of that guess involves looking at what they have done over the past three or four seasons on the field. Young clearly has a large lead over Cutler in that aspect.
When you do the research, be sure to look at the team who drafted the player. I'd be willing to bet the majority went to struggling franchises and had a history of poor drafting.Soxcat said:
TitanJeff said:
Sadly, that describes the Titans of recent years. =(
TitanJeff said:
That only accounts for some if though. If so many star quarterbacks suffer on bad teams that draft them, why don't they do any better later in their career on better teams? No matter which club Akili Smith played for he sucked, the same for Leaf, Couch, etc.
I can't off the top of my head think of one current or recent quarterback that royally sucked, went to a better team and became a superstar. Well actually I decided to look it up and the only one you could mention is Jake Plummer, but I'll admit I don't know exactly how badly he did in Arizona.
And now for something completely different. Is NO even interested in a quarterback? I mean everyone is saying they'll grab Leinar, but they got McPherson last year, does anyone know what his status is the Saints right now?
Vigsted said:
Six-point-eight. It's his rushing average. His passing average is 9.34 yards per attempt.
Also, Matt Leinart's passing average is 8.85. Jay Cutler's is 6.65.
All the talk is what if Cutler had the weapons of USC. What if he had the offensive "weapons" of Texas?
(Sorry if someone posted this. I read no further.)
Oh, and I forgot to mention: the 6.8 rushing average also yielded 3 TDs.
So I guess you just got to ask yourself one question, punk: Which happened first: Did Vince Young run the ball so well that USC overplayed the run game and enabled him to burn them 75% of the time, or did his passing accuracy make them play the pass which gave him the room to run 3 TDs into the endzone? Do you know the answer to that? Well, do ya, punk? Do ya?!
-- Dirty Harry:suspect: :suspect: :suspect: Balls
:ha:
So I guess you just got to ask yourself one question, punk: Which happened first: Did Vince Young run the ball so well that USC overplayed the run game and enabled him to burn them 75% of the time, or did his passing accuracy make them play the pass which gave him the room to run 3 TDs into the endzone? Do you know the answer to that? Well, do ya, punk? Do ya?!
-- Dirty Harry:suspect: :suspect: :suspect: Balls
:ha:
Maybe, but then you also have to consider that when you blow the early draft pick on a franchise QB, it is a major cause of that franchise's struggles for a few years. Teams don't give up on that QB for at least 5 years, so their future is directly tied to his success.TitanJeff said:
Look at guys like Harrington, Carr, and Couch as examples of failed early QB picks. Couch stuck around Cleveland for 5 years and never was productive. Carr and Harrington have been around for 4 years already with nothing good to show. They have been weighing their teams down...
Upon further review, in regard to the original question, I would consider trading the #3 for #9, #41, #63, their #1 next year, and ummm, one of Mike Williams :winker: or Roy Williams or Boss Bailey :winker: :winker: .
And then I guess I'd take Cutler. Maybe Lendale White there.
#9 Cutler
#35 Max Jean Gilles or best OT
#41 DQwell Jackson
#63 Daniel Bullocks
Just entertaining out loud.
#9 Cutler
#35 Max Jean Gilles or best OT
#41 DQwell Jackson
#63 Daniel Bullocks
Just entertaining out loud.
Starkiller said:
Thats an excellant point and just shows how critical this pick for the Titans can be.
One of the things that really makes me think the Titans are not sold on Young is a comment Fisher made. Fisher said last year when he was watching tape of Texas to evaluate Benson he couldn't take his eyes off the QB handing the ball off. Obviously Fisher is laying a smoke screen to build up Young so some team will bite on the bait. Could it be that Fisher and Chow really like what they see in Cutler and or have their doubts about using their 3rd pick and paying Young 25 million for a guy who might not be NFL ready for 3 years? Chow is really a wild card because he worked with Carson Palmer, Leinart and other top college QBs and if anyone is really qualified to see NFL potential it might be him. Maybe Chow sees more Carson Palmer in Cutler than he sees in Vince Young or Leinart so far.
GLinks said:
Well, the stats on ESPN are skewed. For some reason they calculate avg yardage based on attempts, not completions, so I was a little fast in my original post. They list his stats as:
Code:
Passing:
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT
Vince Young 30/40 267 6.7 0 0
Rushing:
CAR YDS AVG TD LG
Vince Young 19 200 10.5 3 45My point is that many of these guys would not have been taken so high had the pick been made by a team known for drafting well to begin with. These are usually perennial losers who probably reach. These guys are thrown to the wolves with less talent around them. It's rare a rookie QB can step in and be successful unless the team had a strong running game and defense to help take the pressure off.Vigsted said:
As for an example off a couple of guys who did well after leaving the teams who drafted them high, Vinny Testaerde never has a passer rating over 76 while with the Bucs and went on to a great career. Maybe Steve Young is another example.
Thats a pretty short list of QBs who ended up being successfull with another team. Actually a guy like Young makes the point. Very few of these guys like a Shuler bomb out and even become decent backups let alone decent starters. A guy like Young proves that if a QB has the goods and only failed because he was on a lousy team should be able to resurrect his career somewhere else. Most of these guys at best get a tryout with another team and don't even make the roster.
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