Exactly, if you look at the Denver game in isolation, sure you can shrug it off to a bad day, but you need to consider past history. Which is why the offence gets a pass this time, and the defence doesn't.
What I really don't understand is, how do people account for the defence being so bad, if it's not the coach? Is it because Reese signs the wrong players, because then he has to go.
As Soxcat put it, it's either lack of coaching or lack of talent and if it's talent we're lacking then it'll be a long time before we start consistently winning games again.
What I really don't understand is, how do people account for the defence being so bad, if it's not the coach? Is it because Reese signs the wrong players, because then he has to go.
As Soxcat put it, it's either lack of coaching or lack of talent and if it's talent we're lacking then it'll be a long time before we start consistently winning games again.
I think it all works hand-in-hand. When you can't establish the run, your defense is on the field too long and wears down. Blame the wet turf but the Titans were ineffective those first series due to WRs going down. It lead to turnovers or punts. Add a couple of early drives and the short-handed Titan D were on their heels.Riverman said:
Which is what they did in the first game. Difference is that the Saints may be bottom feeders while the Broncos are among the league's best.
I have no idea why Schwartz didn't blitz any more than he did. I'm not nearly as concerned with that as I am gaping holes in the interior and the Broncos RB six yards downfield before first contact.
I'm going to step out and say that I think Schwartz absolutely is doing what Fisher wants him to do from a scheme standpoint. In the first couple of seasons after Williams, I think Fisher had a lot of input in the defense and, for the most part, played a simular defense. Fisher is a defensive guy. Schwartz isn't doing anything Fisher does not put his stamp of approval on.
If you don't like Schwartz's defense, you don't like Fishers, IMO.
I don't put all the blame on Fisher. But his stamp of approval is on everything Schwartz does. This isn't Schwartz's defense but the TITANS defense.Soxcat said:
As the old saying goes, coaches coach and players play the game. Schwartz's scheme was not for Sirmon to be plowed when he filled holes. It wasn't for KVB to line up in the neutral zone or Bulluck to bump the receiver before the ball arrived.
I don't see it that way at all. I see it as a little improvement in a number of areas has a greater impact because everything impacts everything else. For example, I think the more glaring problem was the DT play Saturday. With Hayneworth in the middle taking on two blockers, the entire situation changes, Starks maybe has more freedom, Sirmon maybe doesn't have a body on him as fast, etc.
TitanJeff said:
Did we watch the same game, Jeff? It's not like the Broncos were grindind it out against our defence. Below are their scoring drives in the 1st half:
Code:
9 plays, 53 yards, TOP 3:51
4 plays, 44 yards, TOP 1:46
10 plays, 80 yards, TOP 6:44
8 plays, 65 yards, TOP 2:37They used 14:58 and 31 plays to move 242 yards. If our defence physically wears down from that we're in more trouble than I'd like to think about...
Ohh and in the 1st half we had 31 plays for 113 yards taking 13:52 off the clock. So I don't exactly understand Fisher's comment about lack of snaps, we only had 9 less than Bronco's for the entire game, 6 in the 1st half and 3 in the 2nd in comparison.
Schwartz is the defensive coordinator. The past 2 years and the Denver game has been some of the most "uncoordinated" defensive effort I've seen. Yes, Fisher is ultimately responsible, but I still contend with a stronger coordinator you will see a better defense. We'll see how long Fisher keeps "stamping approval" on this defense.
The offense hasn't looked like that for 2 years now. I'm not worried about their performance. I think appropriate adjustments will be made. Our first team defense never stopped the Broncos, they didn't even come close. I don't buy into the argument they were on the field too long.
I honestly think you were seeing veterans making rookie mistakes because they were desparately trying to stop these guys. The execution wasn't there but the effort appeared to be by these two. A occasional blitz would have helped shore things up.
OK- well I want to see our 1st team hold its own against an average 1st team. Like I said, I'm expecting improvement- not status quo from last year. Anything short is a coaching/FO failure.
At least you acknowledge you're stepping out :yes:
Ultimately, yes. It is up to Fisher to make the distinction by whatever means he wants to be identified.
My comment wasn't specific to this game but in general. If the offense can't give the defense some rest, it has an impact. A poor offense has meant a short field for opponents and has hurt the defense. It's just a point to show it's a team sport.Vigsted said:
The difference between Fisher and Schwartz is that most of the players have respect for Fisher. I didn't see the huddle scene clearly the other night, but I know that I saw what looked like Chris Hope on his knee shaking his head while Schwartz was screaming his head off. I will be watching again for the rolling eyes, but I don't doubt that they were there. The one major thing that burns me up about the starting D is that they fell for a bootleg 5 times or more... a few times on the same drive. I was jumping up and down screaming at my TV during those plays. Isn't QB spy a basic defensive call? If that play has happened 3 times in a game and if I were a DC, I would be making a QB spy assignment quick. Put Bulluck or Sirmon on the QB spy duty... Thornton is great at breaking short passes up. "They fell for it again"..."and again"... that's all I could say. I am no defensive wizard, but even I know to adjust to repetitive plays. If Fisher gets canned at the end of this season, I hope he is so loyal to take Jimmy along to whatever team that hires him. I hope that don't happen, but the Titans need to get back to being feared.
I read Fisher's comments from camp today. He is amazing. To paraphrase, basically it was their plan not to adjust. :barf:
http://www.titansonline.com/news/newsmain_detail.php?PRKey=3974
Didn't sound like much asschewing happened at camp today.
http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060821/SPORTS01/60821010/1027
http://www.titansonline.com/news/newsmain_detail.php?PRKey=3974
Didn't sound like much asschewing happened at camp today.
http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060821/SPORTS01/60821010/1027
Riverman said:
It was the second preseason game. I dont think coaches have the same purpose and goals during preseason as they do during the regular season. The regular season you want to win, the preseason, especially the first few games, are to evaluate your talent on the field. I think you get more into the game planning aspects after cuts are made and you have your team more or less dwindled down to the team you are going into the season with. We certainly sucked, but the sky isnt falling after 2 preseason games, especially when your top DL and run stuffer wasnt even on the field. Not to mention Laboy didnt play, and Odom got hurt early, and plus Rien Long is out for the year. Our starters on the DL during this game was only half of who will be starters. I think it would be in our interest to try and find another veteran DL for depth purposes since Long is out, but I suspect that once Haynesworth, Starks, Laboy, and KVB are all out their together then the DL will improve quite a bit.
I hope to see an improved, cohesive and well-coordinated first team defense Saturday.
Not that it means much but the Saints are getting thumped tonight.
TitanJeff said:
Schwartz will be the death of Fisher
the offense (imo) could keep us in games as long as the defense doesn't let things get out of hand
If Schwartz is the death of Fisher than he deserves it. If Schwartz is as bad as everyone claims then you'd think someone like Fish would recognize it. Personally, I thought the entire team looked flat and a little lost. That's not Schwartz's fault. I'm not really sticking up for Schwartz but, more so, just stating that it wasn't just our D that stunk up the field. Out O looked horrible too. Is that Chow's fault? Fisher eventially has got to take the blame for the preformance of the whole team.
He's supposed to be a defensive minded coach. Then I say "fix it!" Do what ever it takes. If you need to fire schwartz than fire him. What ever it takes. I'm sick and tired of all the stereotypical coach speek about how we've got "things to that need work" and "we'll get better" and yadda' yadda' yadda'. Just get this crap-hole team fixed. He needs to shake it up more than by just taking the team to Clarksville for taining camp.
He's supposed to be a defensive minded coach. Then I say "fix it!" Do what ever it takes. If you need to fire schwartz than fire him. What ever it takes. I'm sick and tired of all the stereotypical coach speek about how we've got "things to that need work" and "we'll get better" and yadda' yadda' yadda'. Just get this crap-hole team fixed. He needs to shake it up more than by just taking the team to Clarksville for taining camp.
A moderate mucher...
Here's the deal...
I understand playing a 'vanilla' gameplan is not ideal. However, we were way beyond gameplanning issues in getting totally ripped by Denver's O.
There are fundamental problems with the Titans D irrespective of talent. When I see vet players like Bulluck over run running plays because they aren't shuffling their feet as the backside LB, that is a MAJOR problem. When I see several secondary players running up to make a play but taking bad angles so the RB can run around them to the corner, that is a MAJOR problem. Take a good hard look at that Reggie Bush run to the left that he broke back to the right for a big gainer. There were no LESS than 4 guys who should have stopped that play for either a loss, no gain or short gain. Since those players range in talent and experience, the common factor is coaching. I know Bush is an extremely talent player, but he wasn't putting on Barry Sanders fakes out there. We saw more of the same vs Denver. And it's an easy excuse to say that Denver is a top AFC team so they SHOULD beat us like dogs, but that's not the point. The point is, against a superior running teams, they basic problems are severely exposed (and repeatedly)!
Even HS teams practice these simple techniques so we're not talking...it's too hard for our guys! This is HS stuff!!!
I think everyone agrees that Bulluck is an All Pro player so talent is NOT an issue. But when even HE is making these mistakes and it is repeated by both vets and youngsters alike...THAT is a coaching problem - plain and simple.
I don't care if we win a pre-season game or not. It's not about winning or losing, but how they play. I don't care if we play vanilla so they can run the same defenses and offenses to compare players. But when I see basic technique mistakes, that is what REALLY irks me because you could have any D's talent and still stink if you don't play the correct techniques, take bad angles and don't tackle well!
Too give an illustration, the tops defenses have similarities regardless of player talent. They play good technique, they take good angles, and they tackle well. I'm not seeing this on the Titans right now.
And if you think it's only a talent issue, here's a few thoughts on that...
First, if a lack of talent is the problem, we are doomed to a bad season and the entire coaching staff being cut at season's end. The only bright spot in that dark tunnell would be seeing Vince Young play early and often.
Second, even in our transition years (going from Houston to Ten prior to Eddie and Steve) we had a knock your block off D with a handful or less of 'pro-bowl caliber' players. Is there LESS talent on this team?
Third, where is the lack of talent on D? KVB went to the Pro Bowl, Haynesworth is Pro-bowl caliber, Starks is decent at worst and LaBow is avg at worst. At LB Bulluck is Pro Bowler, Thornton is above avg at worst, and Sirmon is no worse than avg. In the secondary Pac Man should be Pro Bowl caliber this year, Hope is above avg or better, Lamont is avg or better and Hill is no worse than avg. Where is the lack of talent???
In my opinion (being conservative), we have 4 Pro Bowl caliber players and 3 guys just above avg. By my count, that's 7 out of 11 above avg players or better and none of the rest are worse than avg. Can someone explain why we shoundn't be a top 16 D or tell me how you disagree with my player rankings? And BTW, you could easily make the case for some of the players as being rated more highly.
And don't tell me it's because a few guys were out. Everyone has a few guys out but I'm not seeing even mediocre teams getting carved up like we did. And Denver does NOT play smashmouth football in the run game. They don't just line up and knock everyone on their butts. They scheme with people pulling and chipping so the LB's...arguably the strength of our D...are what need to have their run fits work. LB's are taught what the line is SUPPOSED to do (like you have the weak A gap and I have the strong A), but they are supposed to react to what happens TO the DL. If a DT gets blocked into the wrong gap, the LB has to fill the other one. Again, this is HS and college LB play 101. But when you take bad angles and use the wrong technique, you get caught in the trash and are out of the play.
And if you can't stop the run game, then the bootleg is going to happen over and over and over. Against a team like Denver, the DE is in a bind, the tackle will block down leaving the DE free (most of the time). The DE has to shuffle down the line to close the gap but in most D's he also has bootleg responsibility. It's not schocking to see our DE's getting caught when we are getting carved up in the run game. Wait til Vick starts rolling out next week!
Lastly, this is not the first time I've seen these mistakes. They have happened a lot during Schwartz's tenure. Prior to Schwartz, we used to pride ourselves on not giving up a 100 yard rusher and having a top run D. Apparently Schwartz can't get that done without awesome talent. And THAT, is not good enough!
Conclusion - What should we do? Fire Schwartz and have Fisher run the D this season. Pure and simple. We had a good D under Fisher many years ago and we used to thump people. I haven't seen that since Schwartz took over and we went to a soft D.
All this soft D has gotten us is L's, a few losing seasons, and some high draft choices. Whoopie...I want to win a Super Bowl, not go 7-9 and call it good!
Gut
Here's the deal...
I understand playing a 'vanilla' gameplan is not ideal. However, we were way beyond gameplanning issues in getting totally ripped by Denver's O.
There are fundamental problems with the Titans D irrespective of talent. When I see vet players like Bulluck over run running plays because they aren't shuffling their feet as the backside LB, that is a MAJOR problem. When I see several secondary players running up to make a play but taking bad angles so the RB can run around them to the corner, that is a MAJOR problem. Take a good hard look at that Reggie Bush run to the left that he broke back to the right for a big gainer. There were no LESS than 4 guys who should have stopped that play for either a loss, no gain or short gain. Since those players range in talent and experience, the common factor is coaching. I know Bush is an extremely talent player, but he wasn't putting on Barry Sanders fakes out there. We saw more of the same vs Denver. And it's an easy excuse to say that Denver is a top AFC team so they SHOULD beat us like dogs, but that's not the point. The point is, against a superior running teams, they basic problems are severely exposed (and repeatedly)!
Even HS teams practice these simple techniques so we're not talking...it's too hard for our guys! This is HS stuff!!!
I think everyone agrees that Bulluck is an All Pro player so talent is NOT an issue. But when even HE is making these mistakes and it is repeated by both vets and youngsters alike...THAT is a coaching problem - plain and simple.
I don't care if we win a pre-season game or not. It's not about winning or losing, but how they play. I don't care if we play vanilla so they can run the same defenses and offenses to compare players. But when I see basic technique mistakes, that is what REALLY irks me because you could have any D's talent and still stink if you don't play the correct techniques, take bad angles and don't tackle well!
Too give an illustration, the tops defenses have similarities regardless of player talent. They play good technique, they take good angles, and they tackle well. I'm not seeing this on the Titans right now.
And if you think it's only a talent issue, here's a few thoughts on that...
First, if a lack of talent is the problem, we are doomed to a bad season and the entire coaching staff being cut at season's end. The only bright spot in that dark tunnell would be seeing Vince Young play early and often.
Second, even in our transition years (going from Houston to Ten prior to Eddie and Steve) we had a knock your block off D with a handful or less of 'pro-bowl caliber' players. Is there LESS talent on this team?
Third, where is the lack of talent on D? KVB went to the Pro Bowl, Haynesworth is Pro-bowl caliber, Starks is decent at worst and LaBow is avg at worst. At LB Bulluck is Pro Bowler, Thornton is above avg at worst, and Sirmon is no worse than avg. In the secondary Pac Man should be Pro Bowl caliber this year, Hope is above avg or better, Lamont is avg or better and Hill is no worse than avg. Where is the lack of talent???
In my opinion (being conservative), we have 4 Pro Bowl caliber players and 3 guys just above avg. By my count, that's 7 out of 11 above avg players or better and none of the rest are worse than avg. Can someone explain why we shoundn't be a top 16 D or tell me how you disagree with my player rankings? And BTW, you could easily make the case for some of the players as being rated more highly.
And don't tell me it's because a few guys were out. Everyone has a few guys out but I'm not seeing even mediocre teams getting carved up like we did. And Denver does NOT play smashmouth football in the run game. They don't just line up and knock everyone on their butts. They scheme with people pulling and chipping so the LB's...arguably the strength of our D...are what need to have their run fits work. LB's are taught what the line is SUPPOSED to do (like you have the weak A gap and I have the strong A), but they are supposed to react to what happens TO the DL. If a DT gets blocked into the wrong gap, the LB has to fill the other one. Again, this is HS and college LB play 101. But when you take bad angles and use the wrong technique, you get caught in the trash and are out of the play.
And if you can't stop the run game, then the bootleg is going to happen over and over and over. Against a team like Denver, the DE is in a bind, the tackle will block down leaving the DE free (most of the time). The DE has to shuffle down the line to close the gap but in most D's he also has bootleg responsibility. It's not schocking to see our DE's getting caught when we are getting carved up in the run game. Wait til Vick starts rolling out next week!
Lastly, this is not the first time I've seen these mistakes. They have happened a lot during Schwartz's tenure. Prior to Schwartz, we used to pride ourselves on not giving up a 100 yard rusher and having a top run D. Apparently Schwartz can't get that done without awesome talent. And THAT, is not good enough!
Conclusion - What should we do? Fire Schwartz and have Fisher run the D this season. Pure and simple. We had a good D under Fisher many years ago and we used to thump people. I haven't seen that since Schwartz took over and we went to a soft D.
All this soft D has gotten us is L's, a few losing seasons, and some high draft choices. Whoopie...I want to win a Super Bowl, not go 7-9 and call it good!
Gut
And BTW, yes Fisher has responsibility in this whole Schwartz debacle but you can't fire Fisher right before the season starts without losing the whole season. You can fire Schwartz and have Fisher run the D.
Not giving Fisher a total pass, but the reality is we don't want to kill the season before it starts and if things don't drastically improve, I think the whole staff gets the ax at season's end.
Gut
Not giving Fisher a total pass, but the reality is we don't want to kill the season before it starts and if things don't drastically improve, I think the whole staff gets the ax at season's end.
Gut
Gut said:
Well thought out and well said. Let me buy you a beer.:toast:
Okay, here's what I don't understand. You say in this moderate muncher that Bulluck is a Pro Bowler in which I agree. But when Bulluck doesn't perform a basic technique properly, you blame coaching? Why?Gut said:
When did Guns or McGinnis or anyone else coach Bulluck to not shuffle their feet properly? Who's fault is it that Bulluck doesn't execute something he has been doing for years? Or are you saying a better coach spends more time coaching feet shuffling instead of something else? Are you saying the Titans coaching staff doesn't address this technique?
First of all, we can't know how much or little is spent on technique. But based in what I see at camp, and from Fisher reports, it's significant -- especially the past two seasons.
My point is that if even the BEST player on the team is sometimes out of position and it has a lot more to do with a lack of execution by the player than coaching. How is it Schwartz's fault Bulluck is not in the play?
When you look at the talent on this team, I think there is clearly less talent/experience on the Titans D than 70% of the teams out there -- especially what the Titans had on the DL Saturday night. Any execution problems are magnified because of it.
This is what I mean. Talent and technique go hand-in-hand. I don't see any way you blame Schwartz for Bulluck's lack of technique. Maybe you see if McGinnis is doing his job if it is a problem with a number of LBs but it's a scapegoat hunt to blame a coach for a player's inability to execute.
And I say talent is reflected in how the players uses technique. Talent without technique gets you no where. I don't care if we have a bunch of 4.35 guys on the field if they are out of position.
If we win Saturday night in another meaningless preseason game, will it mean the coaching has improved or the player executed better?
TJ, I see what you're saying. But basically, every player needs feedback and objective instruction. That's ONE of the responsibilities of the coach. If technique slips, the coach is supposed to pick up on it and correct it. If a coach tries to improve a players technique unsuccessfully, then it is the coach's responsibility to get a different player. Either way, the coach IS responsible for the players' technique. We've seen poor technique and results for 2 years. That's time enough for a responsible coach to correct the problem.
If our 1st and 2nd unit play better (I don't care about score), then yes, the coach gets the credit along with the players.
If our 1st and 2nd unit play better (I don't care about score), then yes, the coach gets the credit along with the players.
The bottom line is would the same guys we have now perform better under a different head coach, OC or DC. I think so. Basically Bud is going to cut this coaching staff loose if they don't put a better product on the field. We can argue if they deserve it or not but it will happen if we have another 4 win season.
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