I wouldn't say he's not close. He did get an MVP after all. He has been in the playoffs many times. He has went to a Super Bowl. His career numbers are not great, but are higher than some other QB's that are in the hall. The difference is that those other QB's all won a Super Bowl or made multiple appearances. It's still within reach, but it's not looking good due to our recent two-year slide.
First off, the league is in a very different situation now than they were a few years ago. As of now, 2007 will be an uncapped year. The Titans likely can't compete for veteran free agents in that situation against the big markets. So a return to power that year is very possible if we have a new CBA before then. If not, the odds are much worse.RollTide said:
As for Fisher and Reese, I'll say this once and then that's it. They built a Super Bowl contender. They didn't win with a roster that had been handed to them. They built it basically from scratch.
They had to deal with being a vagabond team before 1999. They had to deal with a couple of seasons with massive injury woes (2001, 2004) during the time they were contenders. And now they are rebuilding again. Having losing seasons is no big shock in such a situation.
Fisher and Reese are certainly not perfect. They have some very visible flaws. But they are proven winners. They would never have put together back-to-back 13 game winners if they weren't very good at what they do. I don't think it's easy to find replacements for either of them who can do as well as they have in Nashville. In my opinion, it would be idiotic to suggest that they should be fired based on what we've seen from them so far...
As for what happens in the future, only time will tell.
I'd say he has a slim chance, but he has to win a superbowl to do it.
He has HOF value, as in something for voters to latch onto,
1. MVP
2. Reputation as warrior
3. Super Bowl Appearance
4. Won a lot of games
But he needs to win the big one. Period. And I think he has to do something spectacular in that game to get in.
He has HOF value, as in something for voters to latch onto,
1. MVP
2. Reputation as warrior
3. Super Bowl Appearance
4. Won a lot of games
But he needs to win the big one. Period. And I think he has to do something spectacular in that game to get in.
RollTide,
I don't think you can really say that teams "routinely" go from 5-11 to 11-5. It can certainly be done, and teams do it, but I don't think it's the norm. Teams are greatly praised for being able to do it because it's so difficult. Also, 2004 doesn't qualify as rebuilding, we had our starters, but most got injured. Last year was our first year of rebuilding. That being said, I'm not complacent. I expect improvement this year. Maybe not playoffs, but improvement. However, just because they couldn't pull off an instant turnaround, I don't suggest we throw them out yet...
I don't think you can really say that teams "routinely" go from 5-11 to 11-5. It can certainly be done, and teams do it, but I don't think it's the norm. Teams are greatly praised for being able to do it because it's so difficult. Also, 2004 doesn't qualify as rebuilding, we had our starters, but most got injured. Last year was our first year of rebuilding. That being said, I'm not complacent. I expect improvement this year. Maybe not playoffs, but improvement. However, just because they couldn't pull off an instant turnaround, I don't suggest we throw them out yet...
Starkiller said:
Why is the NFL taking off cap in 2007, isn't the whole reason for cap so that no team becomes a powerhouse?
Starkiller...
Wow from scratch? A super bowl contender? Hell it only took them until their 5th year to do it.
Jeff fisher's coaching record prior to the 99 season was 32-38. He had yet to take a team to the playoffs and had yet to see one winning season. Then he went through that 5 year period when he was 56-24 and now is just 9-23. I guess what i'm saying starkiller is that a team that has 4 winning seasons in 11 years and also 4 losing seasons in that time could be described as mediocre.
Are the minnesota vikings a well oiled powerhouse football program? They don't think so they just fired their head coach. Yet the vikings have had only 2 losing seasons out of the last 11 vs the titans 4 under fisher/reese. The broncos have only had one losing season since then. Give any average coach 11 years and he is bound to win some time. Maybe even get to the super bowl.
You say that the poor helpless titans can't compete being in such a small market. But isn't the nfl basically sharing revenues in a socialist manner? And don't most teams have the same sized home stadium? If being a small market means you can't compete can we automatically assume that cincy, denver, new orleans, st louis, atlanta will automatically be inferior?
"they are proven winners. " yeah starkiller but they have lost just as often.
"it would be idiotic to suggest that they should be fired based on what we've seen from them so far.." I didn't say they should be fired. If we have our third straight losing season in 2006 they should be fired. Did it take lovey smith 4 years to make the bears a winner?
Starkiller, the more people who think like you the less chance we can expect a winner here in nashville.
Wow from scratch? A super bowl contender? Hell it only took them until their 5th year to do it.
Jeff fisher's coaching record prior to the 99 season was 32-38. He had yet to take a team to the playoffs and had yet to see one winning season. Then he went through that 5 year period when he was 56-24 and now is just 9-23. I guess what i'm saying starkiller is that a team that has 4 winning seasons in 11 years and also 4 losing seasons in that time could be described as mediocre.
Are the minnesota vikings a well oiled powerhouse football program? They don't think so they just fired their head coach. Yet the vikings have had only 2 losing seasons out of the last 11 vs the titans 4 under fisher/reese. The broncos have only had one losing season since then. Give any average coach 11 years and he is bound to win some time. Maybe even get to the super bowl.
You say that the poor helpless titans can't compete being in such a small market. But isn't the nfl basically sharing revenues in a socialist manner? And don't most teams have the same sized home stadium? If being a small market means you can't compete can we automatically assume that cincy, denver, new orleans, st louis, atlanta will automatically be inferior?
"they are proven winners. " yeah starkiller but they have lost just as often.
"it would be idiotic to suggest that they should be fired based on what we've seen from them so far.." I didn't say they should be fired. If we have our third straight losing season in 2006 they should be fired. Did it take lovey smith 4 years to make the bears a winner?
Starkiller, the more people who think like you the less chance we can expect a winner here in nashville.
I've got to say I am disappointed with both Fisher and Reese. Especially Reese, because I thought he was a top notch GM. Now that I'm looking back on the past drafts, though, he has been less than spectacular.
I didn't read through everyones post, so if this has been said, sorry, but heres my take on it.
I dont think Mac will make the Hall. Basically, to be a Hall of Fame QB you either have to a) Put up gaudy passing stats (Marino, Tarkenton) or b) Win Super Bowls (Montana, Bradshaw). And McNair has neither of those two. Unless he really comes on the next couple of years and leads us to the SB, I don't see it happening.
I dont think Mac will make the Hall. Basically, to be a Hall of Fame QB you either have to a) Put up gaudy passing stats (Marino, Tarkenton) or b) Win Super Bowls (Montana, Bradshaw). And McNair has neither of those two. Unless he really comes on the next couple of years and leads us to the SB, I don't see it happening.
Gotitans3801...
Actually quick turnarounds are fairly routine. Almost all nfc playoff teams did just that. The panthers, bears, giants, redskins and bucs were all losers in 2004. In 2003 the steelers were 6-10. The next year 15-1. The jags needed just one losing season under jack del rio before the started winning going 9-7 in 2004 and then 12-4 this season. Yet according to starkiller and many on this board it might take 3 even 4 years of losing football before the great geniuses can compile enough players to actually win. It's dumb! It's especially dumb when we have a steve mcnair playing QB as oppposed to some rebuilding teams that might start a rookie QB or be forced to play an inexperienced QB due to injury. We not only had mcnair but also volek. What a luxury!
Look at the situation in tampa bay, very similar. Gruden comes in and wins a super bowl in 2002 for a franchise that had been a winner for several years before that under dungy. Then he has 2 straight losing seasons due to a variety of injuries and cap problems. Did he have a third crap season in a row? No they went 11-5. So why can't we do the same? Had gruden's team gone 6-10 this year he should have been fired and if we have a losing season in 2006 fisher and reese need to be gone.
Actually quick turnarounds are fairly routine. Almost all nfc playoff teams did just that. The panthers, bears, giants, redskins and bucs were all losers in 2004. In 2003 the steelers were 6-10. The next year 15-1. The jags needed just one losing season under jack del rio before the started winning going 9-7 in 2004 and then 12-4 this season. Yet according to starkiller and many on this board it might take 3 even 4 years of losing football before the great geniuses can compile enough players to actually win. It's dumb! It's especially dumb when we have a steve mcnair playing QB as oppposed to some rebuilding teams that might start a rookie QB or be forced to play an inexperienced QB due to injury. We not only had mcnair but also volek. What a luxury!
Look at the situation in tampa bay, very similar. Gruden comes in and wins a super bowl in 2002 for a franchise that had been a winner for several years before that under dungy. Then he has 2 straight losing seasons due to a variety of injuries and cap problems. Did he have a third crap season in a row? No they went 11-5. So why can't we do the same? Had gruden's team gone 6-10 this year he should have been fired and if we have a losing season in 2006 fisher and reese need to be gone.
Reese and the Titans have been hit with some bad injury issues the last two seasons that has slowed some of the development of top picks.
Here are players taken in the first three rounds in 2002 - 2003 which you need to be the strength of the team right now:
2003
Woolfolk
Calico
Brown
2002
Haynesworth
Williams
Calmus
That's a lot of games missed by guys you need to be main contributors. And when they were on the field, many were not close to 100%.
Even 100% healthy, many of these players may turn out to be bad. But I think you have to consider this in your evaluation of Reese the last few drafts.
Here are players taken in the first three rounds in 2002 - 2003 which you need to be the strength of the team right now:
2003
Woolfolk
Calico
Brown
2002
Haynesworth
Williams
Calmus
That's a lot of games missed by guys you need to be main contributors. And when they were on the field, many were not close to 100%.
Even 100% healthy, many of these players may turn out to be bad. But I think you have to consider this in your evaluation of Reese the last few drafts.
You think a homeless team is going to build a Super Bowl contender??? C'mon...RollTide said:
And that was damned good considering the situation. He took over a terrible Oilers team that quickly became homeless, wandering vagabonds. He was praised fror his 3 consecutive 8-8 seasons under the circumstances.
In 2004, they were wiped out by probably the worst injury situation in NFL history (at least in recent history). This year they dumped a ton of veteran talent and were rebuilding. It's not like he led 2 Super Bowl caliber teams to a combined 9 wins...
I said the Titans would have trouble competing in an uncapped year based on the market we play in. Revenue sharing helps a lot, but it's not going to save everyone in an uncapped year. The Titans are right in the middle of the league in terms or team revenue over the past few seasons, mainly because we have a new stadium with club seats and suites which has sold out every game. Will we continue to get sellouts? Based on the half-full Coliseum last year, I think there are some serious doubts about that.
Additionally, as other teams with lower revenues get new stadiums, they will push ahead of us. That includes Indy for sure. The Giants and Jets will get TONS of new revenue whenever they get a new stadium. The Saints could move to LA that year for all we know.
Plus, you'll also have owners with deep pockets who are willing to Steinbrenner their way to the Super Bowl. "Bottom Line" Bud won't be one of them if he sticks with his past spending habits (though you never know I guess). Even if he's willing to spend, he can't outbid guys like Danny Snyder or Jerry Jones.
inside the division the Titans would probably compete though.
Even with a new stadium the dolts/Irsays are not cash cows either.
J'ville I don't remember who ownes them but they got attendance problems still
Houston has a palace so possibly McNair has another billion or so to toss into the pile, but it ain't helped him so far.
Even with a new stadium the dolts/Irsays are not cash cows either.
J'ville I don't remember who ownes them but they got attendance problems still
Houston has a palace so possibly McNair has another billion or so to toss into the pile, but it ain't helped him so far.
GoT said:
Those are good points. It might even be a good topic all on its own (What if there is no cap in '07...?). The AFC South might be the division hurt most of all if that happens because of just what GoT posted. Indy sure doesn't rake in the cash from its team, you guys are similar, J-ville, heck, no one even wants to go to the games, let alone buy their jerseys or spend extra money down there, and Houston just plain sucks too much to make any money. Without that CBA in place, this division could really take some long-term shots. Think of what the teams in the NFC East could do without any cap constraints! That division might get three playoff teams for the next five years out of that...
if there is no CBA how does it affect teams like Tenn/Indy? I know the 'richer' teams can buy anyone they want, but is it only free agents who benefit? What about contracted players?
Gunny said:
The way I understand it, the only way a contracted player could benefit from the lack of an active CBA and no cap, would be if the team wanted to renegotiate with him, and maybe put the bulk of his salary on that season, say a 5 year, $50 million contract, with 30 million paid on the first year(apparently without a CBA, teams can't amortize signing/roster bonus money out over the following seasons as they normally could). Otherwise, contracted players would still have to honor their contracts.
The Giants, Cowboys, Redskins, Eagles, Jets, and a few other big revenue teams could lock up their own and other teams' free agents in a frenzy of spending that could affect the next five or six years. Not pretty for mid to small-market teams.
Well, when the CBA expires, there will be no NFL football at all. The last year is just set up as a poison poll in an effort to force negotiation on a new CBA.
As for where Indy stands, they may well be on an even footing with the Titans once the new stadium opens. The RCA Dome is the smallest NFL stadium and, as far as I know, there is no club or suites.
As for where Indy stands, they may well be on an even footing with the Titans once the new stadium opens. The RCA Dome is the smallest NFL stadium and, as far as I know, there is no club or suites.
Get a hanky for starkiller...
All that talk about homelessness must have caused the tears to run like rain. Give me a break.
A reporter once asked dan marino about the move from the orange bowl to spanking brand new joe robby stadium in miami. Marino said it should not matter much since the field is still 100 yards long.
Did jeff fisher do a good job with the team during a period of adveristy? Sure but they were still only 8-8 those years it wasn't like he heroically got them to the playoffs. Had they not had that problem in 96 and 97 the oilers might have won a couple more games? I don't consider the team homless in 98 because they were in nashville and all the players were able to settle there, buy homes and such. So what if it wasn't a brand new stadium with those club seats you love.
I thought great coaching was when you won despite adversity not going 8-8 or 4-12. I guess your standards are just lower than mine.
And starkiller i don't want to shock you with this fact; other teams also have injuries. Sit down if you feel faint because i know that is something that never occured to you. Only the titans have ever had injury problems right? Snap out of it! When you coach a team for 11 full seasons you are going to have a couple of years when injuries are too overwhelming to have any chance at winning. I know that is a shocking revelation to you but it is true.
All that talk about homelessness must have caused the tears to run like rain. Give me a break.
A reporter once asked dan marino about the move from the orange bowl to spanking brand new joe robby stadium in miami. Marino said it should not matter much since the field is still 100 yards long.
Did jeff fisher do a good job with the team during a period of adveristy? Sure but they were still only 8-8 those years it wasn't like he heroically got them to the playoffs. Had they not had that problem in 96 and 97 the oilers might have won a couple more games? I don't consider the team homless in 98 because they were in nashville and all the players were able to settle there, buy homes and such. So what if it wasn't a brand new stadium with those club seats you love.
I thought great coaching was when you won despite adversity not going 8-8 or 4-12. I guess your standards are just lower than mine.
And starkiller i don't want to shock you with this fact; other teams also have injuries. Sit down if you feel faint because i know that is something that never occured to you. Only the titans have ever had injury problems right? Snap out of it! When you coach a team for 11 full seasons you are going to have a couple of years when injuries are too overwhelming to have any chance at winning. I know that is a shocking revelation to you but it is true.
So called rich teams?
The nfl has a revenue sharing system that hands out all television revenues equally to every city. Also all promotional and licensing revenues are shared equally. The road team at any nfl game gets 34% of the gate.
Since all nfl stadiums are now roughly equal in size that really should not matter much. It isn't like new york teams play in massive 150K stadiums or something.
Who are the rich teams? The giants are not really mega rich and they have to compete locally with the jets for revenue. The second largest market doesn't even have a team and the third largest market team is owned by a family that is neither mega rich nor willing to throw money around.
Apparently bud adams didn't buy into this whole big market small market thing since he moved his team from houston to nashville.
Sure is a lame excuse for failure. Why even go to the games then? The way starkiller talks the titans are no different than the montreal expos.
The nfl has a revenue sharing system that hands out all television revenues equally to every city. Also all promotional and licensing revenues are shared equally. The road team at any nfl game gets 34% of the gate.
Since all nfl stadiums are now roughly equal in size that really should not matter much. It isn't like new york teams play in massive 150K stadiums or something.
Who are the rich teams? The giants are not really mega rich and they have to compete locally with the jets for revenue. The second largest market doesn't even have a team and the third largest market team is owned by a family that is neither mega rich nor willing to throw money around.
Apparently bud adams didn't buy into this whole big market small market thing since he moved his team from houston to nashville.
Sure is a lame excuse for failure. Why even go to the games then? The way starkiller talks the titans are no different than the montreal expos.
Presumably you're not really as stupid as that post (#57) makes you sound?
Then explain to me how the top 7 teams in the NFL average over $60M more reveue per year from their stadiums than the bottom 7 teams. All of the top 10 teams have new stadiums. All of the bottom 10 teams are in older stadiums (without club areas or suites, where the teams make real money).RollTide said:
Bud moved because Houston wouldn't build him a new stadium and Nashville would.
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