A competitor will want to win. The best way to win is to stay home.
It's like if you had a 7 point lead at the end of a game with 2:00 remaining and the other team is out of time outs. Competitor or not, you want to run the ball (or take a knee imo) three times and punt. Sure, you might be able to score, but trying to score could also cost you the game.
It's like if you had a 7 point lead at the end of a game with 2:00 remaining and the other team is out of time outs. Competitor or not, you want to run the ball (or take a knee imo) three times and punt. Sure, you might be able to score, but trying to score could also cost you the game.
I can agree that a competitor will want to win. And your analogy of a 7pt lead works, except I think its a basketball game instead of a football game. 
)
I dont think they are THAT far ahead. Its more like 2:00 minutes left of a basketball game with maybe a 7 or 10pt lead and they are already benching their starters.
Maybe if it was a Laker and Hawks game in LA.... oh wait the Lakers lost that game didn't they. :ha: ... sorry side track...
Seriously, I just think they're being too conservative too soon...
) I dont think they are THAT far ahead. Its more like 2:00 minutes left of a basketball game with maybe a 7 or 10pt lead and they are already benching their starters.
Maybe if it was a Laker and Hawks game in LA.... oh wait the Lakers lost that game didn't they. :ha: ... sorry side track...
Seriously, I just think they're being too conservative too soon...
I think the rose bowl trumps the combine. Every single time. What he did there was beyond the comprehension of man. I don't care how good anyone does at the combine, Young goes 1,2,or 3. There's no reason to compete. He's king of the mountain and nobody can knock him off unless they get a prize fight.
Right now, Bush, Young and Leinhart are easily the consensus for top 3. The only question, right now, is the order. It isn't like they won't work out, they will just do it under their terms. Almost every year the top picks don't work out in every combine. This year is no different.
Titanpride...
Favre like ability for cutler? You mean he likes to take risks and throw interceptions? By draft time cutler's stock will fall below that of omar jacobs who i think will be a better pro. I like cutler but you and others talk about him as if he was carson palmer as a prospect. He is not.
Cutler is not a great passer as you describe him. He does not have a brett favre arm. Certainly enough arm to succeed but a great passer? Where do you get that? People like to knock vince young's throwing style but cutler doesn't have the best footwork in the world and that gun slinger mentality bothers me.
Favre like ability for cutler? You mean he likes to take risks and throw interceptions? By draft time cutler's stock will fall below that of omar jacobs who i think will be a better pro. I like cutler but you and others talk about him as if he was carson palmer as a prospect. He is not.
Cutler is not a great passer as you describe him. He does not have a brett favre arm. Certainly enough arm to succeed but a great passer? Where do you get that? People like to knock vince young's throwing style but cutler doesn't have the best footwork in the world and that gun slinger mentality bothers me.
leinart really turned me off with his comments after the rose bowl. "i think we were the better team, we just didn't win."
Leinart kind of shot himself in the foot with me, too, on that one.
I'd still draft him if Young was gone.
I'd still draft him if Young was gone.
The only players I think can "fall" are Bush and Leinart. Bush falls if the Texans wise up and take D'Brick. Hence, D'Brick is the only player who can push up that high and take #1. Leinart can fall if the Saints take Young and we pass on Leinart and take the remainder of D'Brick or Bush without trading down. Then Leinart is out of the top 3.
No other player is going to impress enough to move into the top spots, because their performances cannot change a team's basic needs.
I understand the evaluators' desire to see all players participate. It's kind of an AYSO mentality - everyone plays, or at least that's what they want.
But still, the Combine is part dog and pony show. Bush, Leinart and Young don't really need to show up except to interview.
No other player is going to impress enough to move into the top spots, because their performances cannot change a team's basic needs.
I understand the evaluators' desire to see all players participate. It's kind of an AYSO mentality - everyone plays, or at least that's what they want.
But still, the Combine is part dog and pony show. Bush, Leinart and Young don't really need to show up except to interview.
VolnTitan said:
I would have to disagree with that. I think Cutler has a quite a bit stronger arm than Young, but Young's arm is plenty strong.
Right now I think Young is a more Athletic Steve Mcnair with less passing ability. Which means to me that he has a great chance of becoming a newer, improved model of Steve Mcnair. Definitly a strong choice for your franchise.
I think a lot of people here and other places are dismissing Cutler too quickly. The notion of comparing Cutler to Lienart or young based on stats, winning percentages, or titles is strongly flawed. Each of these measures are measures of team's performance. I don't know of anybody that would have said Vandy was or is as good as USC or UT (longhorns of course).
But if you want to analyze a single player you have to break down the abilities. the hard part is you really cant use stats to back up those break downs, because again you get into team performance over player's abilities. So the arguements get rather subjective. When i try to break down a qb's abilities I look at accuracy, athletic ability, mobility, football iq (including the ability to learn and adapt as well as read offenses), arm strength, charisma, and leadership abilities.
When it comes to accuracy I say Lienart has the strong edge. Then Cutler, then Young. This is not to say Young has bad accuracy, he doesnt. but you rarely see him fitting passes into tight spots or making phenomenal plays with his arm.
Athletic ability definitly goes to Young, then I would say Cutler, then Leinart. Now, people really harp on Leinart about athletic ability. I think he is very athletic, just not as athletic as the other two. young's ability is obvious. Cutler can also scramble (he actually plaed both saftey and qb in hs and was turned down other college offers because they wanted him as a saftey)
Mobility- This isnt quite the same thing as athletic ability, but close. I think the ranking would be the same. (for example Shaq is defintly athletic- I dont think anyone would call him especially mobile)
Football Iq- this is where again a place where Leinart shines. I think Cutler would be second and young third. PPl really take exception to saying young is third here, but they ran a very simple offense in college. Yeah it was very effective, great. But still means he is behind on his ability to read defenses and overall football iq. The titans staff really liked how cutler took to instruction, plus he went to vandy and got a solid degree-commmunity and orgnizational developmetn or something like that (I should know better because I almost got went there for their master's level equivelant until my wife and I both got into a school in cali-
arm strength- I think Cutler comes out top here, then young then Leinart and most scouting reports agree with that. This is probably Lienarts greatest weakness- I dont know how much of one it is though.
charisma- this is where Young really shines, more than athletic ability in my mind, then I would put Culter and then Lienart (largely because of his comments after the rose bowl
Leadership- This is more difficult. I would probably put young first and then cutler and Lienart close or tied....*shrugs*
So as you can see in my analysis these three candidates are all strong potential candiates...The difference is more in you taste in a qb than in abilities.
I see Young with the most potential and risk. Cutler as the most balanced and Leinart as the most nfl ready and safe pick.
thats how I see it anyway
)Great post prag, to say that Cutler is anything less than the 3rd best Qb is ridiculous. While he will probably wont rise above leinart and Young he has definitely set the bar for the top 3 qb's in the draft. Even if you look at his stats in a defensive savvy conference he put up good numbers for a team that should have led the nation in dropped passes. And the arm strength issue isn't even an issue. Anyone that saw the UT and Florida game saw how he could thread the needle with a frozen rope. I just believe that Young and Leinart are so talented and highly rated that you couldn't pass on them at the #3 position, but if we trade down and he's on the board its a totally different story.
Good post, but couple of issues....How can you say Cutler is more accurate than Young. The stats don't bear out. Young had a much better passing effiency rating. In fact, Young was better than Leinhart in that rating also. He also ad a better completion percentage, threw more TDs, they had basically the same number of yards...Again, not saying Cutler is a bad QB...he is a good one.
I think Young's arm is every bit as strong if not stronger than Cutler's, but since we haven't seen Cutler in a throwing "competition", hard to say. But Young did throw it 60-70 yards in the skills competition, so the arm strength argument is nil.
I think Young's arm is every bit as strong if not stronger than Cutler's, but since we haven't seen Cutler in a throwing "competition", hard to say. But Young did throw it 60-70 yards in the skills competition, so the arm strength argument is nil.
I don't think anyone was saying Cutler was less than the #3 QB, although maybe someone said Jacobs is better. Which is hard to say because haven't seen him as much. Of course many of the arguements being made for Cutler can be made for Jacobs also.
Nice post, Prag. But we need to remember we are not drafting for what the player can do for the Titans NOW but what he'll do in the next three to 10 seasons.
So I think this debate should be more about potential and less about who the better player is now. Young has the most POTENTIAL upside, IMO. I just don't see a ceiling with this kid.
That doesn't mean that the other two won't also improve and be solid QBs but I can see Young as someone who can take over the game with two minutes left and 80 yards to go for a TD. Like McNair did so often.
So I think this debate should be more about potential and less about who the better player is now. Young has the most POTENTIAL upside, IMO. I just don't see a ceiling with this kid.
That doesn't mean that the other two won't also improve and be solid QBs but I can see Young as someone who can take over the game with two minutes left and 80 yards to go for a TD. Like McNair did so often.
TitanJeff said:
I completly agree. Except the word Potential also needs to be tempered with the word Risk.
I think Young has just as much Risk to fail in the NFL as he does Potential to be great. Please dont take that to mean that I think he is going to fail or that I want him to. Thats definetely not the case. I think Young could become that future hof qb that people talk about for years- but that is tempered with equal risk.
Young's strengths are phenomenal- no doubt. But his weaknesses are polar opposite in that they are not necessariy things that are easy to overcome and they could drastically impinge on his ability to reach even an iota of that potential. - therefore more risk. I think the team that drafts Young is going to be rolling the dice a bit more than a team that picks one of the other two.
Leinart I think has the least risk associated with him. He is going to be a solid nfl qb. Maybe not a future hof, maybe not even a pro bowler (though probably he will). But he is probably going to be a solid pick.
Cuter is that mix. He has the tools to be in the realm of Favre or Elway. He also has more risk than Leinart. If he cant tweak his mechanics and learn some better decision making then he may never reach that potential. But I think the things he has to work on are easier to acheive (especially with chow and the Titans organization) than the things Young has to work on. So if we pick Cutler we still have the very good possibility on getting a hof qb without the same risk of that Young brings.
with Lienart I doubt we get a hof qb, but we can be comfortable that he wont be a bust.
With Young we may have the next Jordan of the NFL, but we might have the next Kwame Brown (attitude not included).
No doubt. And many think he is a boom or bust kind of player. There may be no in between.PragIdealist said:
I would love to be a fly on the wall if Reese were to ask Chow about him. Chow has done some outstanding work with young QBs but he's been able to work with them coming right out of high school. Could he do his mojo with Young?
I totally agree with your other comments as well though am not as high on Cutler as many here.
the sky is the limit for vince
i would take that kid hands down with our #3 if he's there...
just watching tape of him, well i'll let it speak for itself
i would take that kid hands down with our #3 if he's there...
just watching tape of him, well i'll let it speak for itself
Well we have:
Matt Leinart = Chad Pennington
Vince Young = Akili Smith
Jay Cutler = Kyle Boller
Pick your poison :thumb:
In all fairness the Young link should probably have been Mike Vick, then they're all 3 quarterbacks that aren't quite busts yet...
Matt Leinart = Chad Pennington
Vince Young = Akili Smith
Jay Cutler = Kyle Boller
Pick your poison :thumb:
In all fairness the Young link should probably have been Mike Vick, then they're all 3 quarterbacks that aren't quite busts yet...
ok, question
If we accept that Vince, Leinart, and Culter could each be either a) the next great thing, or b) the next heart breaking bust....
Then what do each of these guys need to do to not be the bust?
Vince's is the easiest for me to see. He needs to develop into more of a pocket passer where he thinks throw before run. He needs to show that he can read defenses and go through his progressions and he needs to show that he can thread the needle when he needs to. He needs to show that he can manage an NFL style offense and take snaps behind the center. If he can do all that and maintain the athleticism and his leadership qualities that he currently has then I think he will be a great qb.
Leinart is harder for me. I think he needs to show that he has the arm strength and that his tendency to float the long ball is due to habit and the college athletes he plays against rather than any defiency on his part. He needs to show that he can put zip on his passes, especially on the deep outs. He needs to show that he can be a leader when losing as well as when winning. He needs to show that he can take a beating behind OL's that are not stellar and he needs to show that he can move around in the pocket. He needs to show that he can take hits and not get rattled. All of which he may be able to do, but he needs to show those things.
Cutler- What does Cutler need to do to become the next Favre or Elway instead of Boller or Losman? Well, he needs to show consitent accuracy. He needs to show that he can make good decisions- yes he can thread the needle but does he know when to thread it and how consisentant can he do it. He needs to show that his tendency to throw off his back foot is due to his current/previous OL, and that he can adapt and change that. If he does each of those things will he not be a Boller or Losman?
Do these sound right? :hmm:
If we accept that Vince, Leinart, and Culter could each be either a) the next great thing, or b) the next heart breaking bust....
Then what do each of these guys need to do to not be the bust?
Vince's is the easiest for me to see. He needs to develop into more of a pocket passer where he thinks throw before run. He needs to show that he can read defenses and go through his progressions and he needs to show that he can thread the needle when he needs to. He needs to show that he can manage an NFL style offense and take snaps behind the center. If he can do all that and maintain the athleticism and his leadership qualities that he currently has then I think he will be a great qb.
Leinart is harder for me. I think he needs to show that he has the arm strength and that his tendency to float the long ball is due to habit and the college athletes he plays against rather than any defiency on his part. He needs to show that he can put zip on his passes, especially on the deep outs. He needs to show that he can be a leader when losing as well as when winning. He needs to show that he can take a beating behind OL's that are not stellar and he needs to show that he can move around in the pocket. He needs to show that he can take hits and not get rattled. All of which he may be able to do, but he needs to show those things.
Cutler- What does Cutler need to do to become the next Favre or Elway instead of Boller or Losman? Well, he needs to show consitent accuracy. He needs to show that he can make good decisions- yes he can thread the needle but does he know when to thread it and how consisentant can he do it. He needs to show that his tendency to throw off his back foot is due to his current/previous OL, and that he can adapt and change that. If he does each of those things will he not be a Boller or Losman?
Do these sound right? :hmm:
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