rcarie said:
Instead of stats and wins you judge them on film. You judge them on how well they move, throw, tests scores, and set-up work outs. You judge them on ability- not on how whether their team won or lost games.
You say its just speculation on how well Cutler would have done on USC- but speculation is all that we can do. Its speculation on how a guy did on any college team to how well he will do on an nfl team.
If you're using team wins/loses and stats then its still speculation on how well ML will do on an NFL team based on how well he did on a well stacked college team.
Its speculation on how Culter will do on an nfl team based on how well he did on a poor college team. So all thats still speculation...
I suggest that when you try to evaluation a player you break down their abilities and make your judgements on that... not stats and wins/loses that will skew opinions becuase of a team's success.
Its not really that hard. If you dont like Cutler or you don't think he is as good as ML or VY then give a specific reason why- using a description of his abilities.
Did I assume that skills weren't involved, sorry. Of course skills and ability matter, those are the same tools it takes to lead a team it winning seasons. (Volek played lights out??) Volek only won one game that he started. It may be coincidence but teams aren't exactly banging the door down for him. If you don't think that winning plays a part in the scouting process you've lost your mind. Not to say that it is soley the most important (I know it's not) but it does matter.Vigsted said:
As an example I'll give a couple of negatives I have on all 3 quarterbacks:
Leinart: Doesn't show great strength, not as mobile as the other 2
Young: Tends to tuck and run to quick, often floats his passes
Cutler: Tends to stare down receivers, often throws off his back foot
This is all based on footage I've seen of the 3.
Leinart: Doesn't show great strength, not as mobile as the other 2
Young: Tends to tuck and run to quick, often floats his passes
Cutler: Tends to stare down receivers, often throws off his back foot
This is all based on footage I've seen of the 3.
rcarie said:
Again with the winning as the measure of success. Volek had 2 games where he played great, combined 69/103 for 918 yards, 8 TD's, 1 INT and 3 sacks. Yet the team lost both games.
PragIdealist said:
I never said that you judge a player entirely on wins and losses but it does matter. Sorry, that's the knock on Cutler... You can watch it all day on the NFL channel and they all talk about him coming from a losing program.
I haven't seen your evaluation of why you like Cutler over Leinhart yet. I like Leinhart's ability to make decisions under preasure better than Cutler's. As for ability, I don't think there's a night and day difference which is why I like Leinhart better. Cutler has a better arm we all know that. As for who'll prepare more (film study ect.) I don't know but if you look at results who do you like??? Who's faster? Neither is a speed demon so who cares there's not that big a defference there. I've stood next to Cutler and he isn't as big as I would expect an NFL QB to be. Of course I was about thirteen cold beers into it and he didn't seem to far behind.... So aside from Cutler having a better arm they both pocess NFL ability so I have to look at intangibles like: playing under preasure consistantly over the course of a season or two, toughness, leadership, inteligence, big game play and so on... Based on those things I like Leinhart.
You aren't going to win me over with Volek. He's the biggest wuss on the team and we'll never win with him as starter. All of the games your talking about were losers. He had to pass because we were down by several touch downs... Big Deal! We still lost. That's a hole different thread.Vigsted said:
rcarie said:
I'm not trying to say Volek is a great QB, I am however pointing out that looking at the win-loss column doesn't reflect how the individual player performed. I used those 2 games in isolation to illustrate that point.
Look, I like Cutler. He's a southern Indiana kid like me so I'd love to see him come in here and kick some Ars. I just think ML may be a little more suited to coming in and playing good earlier than the others. Besides the fact that of his playing experience he also has ties with Norm Chow and that could make a difference too...
rcarie said:
Thats great. That is exactly what I want to see when we talk about evaluating a player- talking about abilities over stats and wins. Why is that so hard for ppl? (I'm not really talking about you?) But like you said the main knock on Cutler is the winning percentage and lack of bowl games his vandy team produced. To me that is no a solid knock against him- its a superficial and shallow way to judge a player. (again I'm not meaning you).
I'm not sold that Cutler is better than ML, but I like him. I see the same things you just said "As for ability, I don't think there's a night and day difference"
but Cutler has a better arm, is more mobile, is faster, has shown that he can take a beating and shine in difficult situations. Then there is the offseason where every event he competes- pro day, senior bowl, combine. I like that.Even when supposedly Bus was advising him to skip the combine- he listens to others and he showed up ready to compete. ML was cautious and smart about it- there is no knock there- but I like that Cutler wants to compete. I think his accuracy is good if not great (espeically after his pro day and I think he can make exciting throws that ML can't make and he is more of a risk taker- a go for it competitor. I like that too.
I also see weakness. I think ML has a better touch. I think ML has learned how to take care of the ball better and read defenses better. I think ML is smarter, more cautious. His technique is better and I would bet he knows the game better. But I think his arm is average at best. I think he may be too cautious. I dont know that he is that good under pressure. Though I know a lot of people would disagree with that. I remember the game against young, he looked pretty rattled. He did a great job of settling down- but i think he did get rattled in the early-middle of the game. I think he got rattled on his pro day. Even fisher is quoted as saying he thought he was trying too hard (paraphrasing). Matt himself talked about trying to throw it too hard here and there and being too stiff and such. He calmed down and did well- but I think he did get rattled.
So i think they are very close. But the things that I see Matt being very very good at are things that I think Cutler can develop under chow. Expereince with pro-style offense, being better able to read defenses, better technique and mechanics, etc. Maybe I'm completely wrong here and that is not as easy for hom to develop as I think.
In the end if they are really as close as i think they could be- then which would you rather have at the end of the game. We're behind by 4 at the end of the game with very little time on the clock- time for 1 maaaybe 2 plays left. Its 4rth and 5 on in the redzone and fisher/chow put it in the hands of our qb. Two guys are open. One will just get you the first down and the other will get you the touchdown. The first down is the sure thing to troupe. The touchdown will take a needle pass into the hands of Brandon Jones.... Which choice would you want us to take and which qb woud you choose us to have to make it. :lol: - ok that was just because I'm bored on a slow news/rumor day. :ha:
Seriously though I dont know who is better and I dont know which is a better fit for the NEW Titans that the FO is putting together. I just get tired of arguments that lean on the team's succes and not on the players individual abilities...
The arguement btwn. Leinhart and Cutler reminds me alot of the Leaf vs. Manning debate. Not saying that either will be Manning or Leaf, but similarities there.
PragIdealist said:
Did you see the Notre Dame game? If there were any doubts you can just go back to that game where he threaded the needle for about sixty yards with the world on the line. Both QB's are easy to make an arguement for though.... It's going to be exciting. I can't wait to hear everybody b!tch when we finally get someone. It won't matter who either.
)rcarie said:... It's going to be exciting. I can't wait to hear everybody b!tch when we finally get someone. It won't matter who either.
I won't be biatching about who we get.
I'm ready to put this issue to bed.
tell me about it, speaking of bed...it's calling me right now.
Frankly, I want Omar Jacobs in the 2nd round.
Frankly, I want Omar Jacobs in the 2nd round.
I still say if Cutler had the team around him and the coaching Leinart had he would be considered one of the top QBs in the draft. The fact he is considered one of the top QBs in the draft after playing at Vandy tells you something about his skills and ability.
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