It depends on how you look at this. Leinart may be the second QB taken this year. Last year, he'd been far and away #1. It depends on the strength of the position in a given year.
1983 wasn't a bad year to take the #3 or #6 QB. :brow:
1983 wasn't a bad year to take the #3 or #6 QB. :brow:
If do trade down we would get Cutler, however that is not an option, our solution is Vince Young and to sort out our holes at MLB and safety
Jeff...
All i did was to provide the historical truth. If lienart falls behind young in this draft it will be for a reason. Either young has done something to suggest he is a better prospect or lienart has done something to lower his stock. Based on the list i provided those facors seem to matter more than we think.
Had lienart went out in 2005 he would have been the top QB taken and would have been the top pick. And alex(bust) smith would have been second and with his one TD and 11 ints he looks like a walking heath shuler if ever there was one. I don't see how that would make anyone feel better.
The reasons why lienart is considered the better propsect than young might be the very reasons he succeeds and young does not. If reese sincerely believes lienart is better shouldn't he go after him or simply trade out of that pick or draft someone else?
All i did was to provide the historical truth. If lienart falls behind young in this draft it will be for a reason. Either young has done something to suggest he is a better prospect or lienart has done something to lower his stock. Based on the list i provided those facors seem to matter more than we think.
Had lienart went out in 2005 he would have been the top QB taken and would have been the top pick. And alex(bust) smith would have been second and with his one TD and 11 ints he looks like a walking heath shuler if ever there was one. I don't see how that would make anyone feel better.
The reasons why lienart is considered the better propsect than young might be the very reasons he succeeds and young does not. If reese sincerely believes lienart is better shouldn't he go after him or simply trade out of that pick or draft someone else?
RollTide said:
First of all this is an unusual year in that the 4 guys at the top of this draft could all be #1 picks in other years. 2nd of all I'm not sure Lienart is graded above Young but might be more NFL ready thus the reason he may go ahead of Young. 3rd, Bush is possibly the highest rated player to come out in the history of the draft which isn't the fault of all the other guys nor does it diminish their talent.
Now if it was obvious that Leinart (a guy who could go #2 QB this year anyway) was the obvious best and Young was a concession prize I might agree with you. If we get Young we could eaily be getting the better of the two. If Leinart would have come out last year he would have been the #1. Even so I'm not sure the Titans don't want Young more.
Using your logic the Saints could be chosing which QB is a HOF player and also making the choice of which QB is going to be a dud. Like if they go Young instead of Leinart then Leinart would automatically the next Ryan Leaf. It is possible that both QBs could be great players or that both players are duds. Either way you have to take the guy you think can be the heir to McNair if he is worth the 3rd pick.
If your point is the top player drafted from any given position is usually the better choice, then I think that is obvious. Otherwise, it's flawed logic.RollTide said:
Meaning another QB was drafted earlier because someone thought he was better. Some thought Leaf was better than Manning too. In '83, five teams thought they were getting better QBs than Marino who was the sixth QB taken.
Let's hope the Niners are not ready to call Smith a bust. It's waaaaaaaay too early to make that call.
Of course. If given a choice, Reese should take whoever he feels is the best QB. That doesn't mean the one he passes over won't be a successful NFL QB.
Soxcat said:
I agree that in a trade down, the ideal would be White and Cutler. But I think overall trading down is not the way to go.
RollTide said:
No...you also have to consider who is the better QB for your team and system and overall needs. Hence, for example, the Saints may feel that Young would be the better NFL player, but take Leinart because they feel he can have them winning more games sooner, whereas we may feel Leinart is better now, but have a couple of guys currently who can give him time to develop, at which time he would be equal to or better than Leinart.
The "walking Heath Shuler" line is hilarious, by the way.
Jeff you make no sense...
If given a choice, Reese should take whoever he feels is the best QB
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That's just it he doesn't have a choice. He will be picking third and taking whoever is left. History shows that doesn't work well. Even teams drafting a QB with the very first pick experience a 50% bust rate.
"Meaning another QB was drafted earlier because someone thought he was better."
Well duh. Lienart is the better prospect. The reason for that is that his adustment from the college game to the pros is not very dramatic while young's adjustment is very dramatic. Therefore young represents significantly more risk even if he has more high end potential. If that all isn't enough lienart would have the same exact offense with the titans that he played at usc. Even the same coordinator. Doesn't that factor in?
If floyd reese sincerely believes that lienart is the better prospect and the better fit for this team doesn't he have a duty to try and get that player?
You saw my lists jeff. Does that give you confidence?
As for alex smith he makes akili smith(related?) look like hall of fame material by comparison. One TD pass in 7 starts? 11 ints? Can you get any more putrid? What would be an improvement jeff 2 TDs? And note that alex smith had 11 fumbles! In 7 starts he threw 11 ints and put the ball on the ground 11 times! As a rookie ryan leaf had 2 tds and 15 ints. Sound familiar?
Speaking of leaf the 1998 leaf vs manning argument was mostly BS from talking heads. I doubt if more than one or 2 GMs would have actually taken leaf had they the first pick. In any event the colts drafted a hall of fame player and the chargers were left with a bag of ca ca.
If given a choice, Reese should take whoever he feels is the best QB
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That's just it he doesn't have a choice. He will be picking third and taking whoever is left. History shows that doesn't work well. Even teams drafting a QB with the very first pick experience a 50% bust rate.
"Meaning another QB was drafted earlier because someone thought he was better."
Well duh. Lienart is the better prospect. The reason for that is that his adustment from the college game to the pros is not very dramatic while young's adjustment is very dramatic. Therefore young represents significantly more risk even if he has more high end potential. If that all isn't enough lienart would have the same exact offense with the titans that he played at usc. Even the same coordinator. Doesn't that factor in?
If floyd reese sincerely believes that lienart is the better prospect and the better fit for this team doesn't he have a duty to try and get that player?
You saw my lists jeff. Does that give you confidence?
As for alex smith he makes akili smith(related?) look like hall of fame material by comparison. One TD pass in 7 starts? 11 ints? Can you get any more putrid? What would be an improvement jeff 2 TDs? And note that alex smith had 11 fumbles! In 7 starts he threw 11 ints and put the ball on the ground 11 times! As a rookie ryan leaf had 2 tds and 15 ints. Sound familiar?
Speaking of leaf the 1998 leaf vs manning argument was mostly BS from talking heads. I doubt if more than one or 2 GMs would have actually taken leaf had they the first pick. In any event the colts drafted a hall of fame player and the chargers were left with a bag of ca ca.
Lendale white....
I like lendale white and the thought of getting another eddie is appetising. But is white worth a 9th or 10th pick? Probably not. And to target a guy like that means drafting him that high.
Looking at a comparable prospect from recent draft larry johnson comes to mind but johnson was and is faster than white and was only the 27th pick in 2003. So why will white go much higher? Well for one thing there simply are no backs with size in this draft other than him. Williams and addai have average size, bush and maroney have tiki barber like size and other backs like drew and calhoun are pee wee size. White is the only big back worth taking on the first day. He might be the only back with size worth taking in the first 4 rds! And isn't that what we really need and want in a back? A guy who can pound it inside and get the tough yardage?
Other backs with size worth drafting.
Mike bell 6-1 220. Good inside power runner who isn't supposed to have the speed and quickness to be a feature back.
Gerald riggs jr. 6-0 217. A little more speed than bell but has the history of ankle injuries and as UT fans know he never made that starting tail back job his own.
Now while both these guys have good size either one has that extraordinary size like an eddie geroge or jerome bettis. The kind of size that white has. There is a back from va tech called humes who weighs in at 233 and might be worth a 6th or 7th rd pick. But that is about it.
I like lendale white and the thought of getting another eddie is appetising. But is white worth a 9th or 10th pick? Probably not. And to target a guy like that means drafting him that high.
Looking at a comparable prospect from recent draft larry johnson comes to mind but johnson was and is faster than white and was only the 27th pick in 2003. So why will white go much higher? Well for one thing there simply are no backs with size in this draft other than him. Williams and addai have average size, bush and maroney have tiki barber like size and other backs like drew and calhoun are pee wee size. White is the only big back worth taking on the first day. He might be the only back with size worth taking in the first 4 rds! And isn't that what we really need and want in a back? A guy who can pound it inside and get the tough yardage?
Other backs with size worth drafting.
Mike bell 6-1 220. Good inside power runner who isn't supposed to have the speed and quickness to be a feature back.
Gerald riggs jr. 6-0 217. A little more speed than bell but has the history of ankle injuries and as UT fans know he never made that starting tail back job his own.
Now while both these guys have good size either one has that extraordinary size like an eddie geroge or jerome bettis. The kind of size that white has. There is a back from va tech called humes who weighs in at 233 and might be worth a 6th or 7th rd pick. But that is about it.
And 50% of marriages end in divorce. And every time you flip a coin you have a 50% shot of guessing wrong. Does that mean you shouldn't do it if you feel it's the right thing to do? Nothing is guaranteed. There are risks associated with most everything.RollTide said:
Maybe. Time will tell. I think Young has unlimited upside where Leinart's will be. That doesn't mean both won't be successful though. But this either/or mentality you have is skewed. What about 1983 which put three QBs taken in the first round into the HOF? Every one taken after Elway was a bum?
You want to judge the kid based on seven rookie starts for a crap team? He sucked but he had nothing around him to help take off the pressure. Any judgement of Smith right now is premature.
I guess you'd cut a kid who threw twice as many INTs as TD his rookie year and had a 55.7 passer rating, right? You just cut HOF QB Troy Aikman.
Okay, I'll play along with you here. You play Reese. Bush and Lienart are off the board. You now have Young and Brick and the rest. Who are you going to take at #3?
Remember, you can't trade down for Culter because anyone taken after the first player in any given position is a RISK.
They are not related. Alex is white, Akili is black.RollTide said:
I would just like to point out that if they took all the players drafted in 2003 and made them FA's and then redrafted them, Larry Johnson would be a top 5 pick, if not the top pick. Clearly, many GM's made a big mistake to allow him to slide to 27th. There wasn't really any question marks about him coming out of college either, making it even more dubious. That's a rather poor example. =/
RollTide said:
Yeah, I'd choke if the Titans drafted Riggs. He's no better than Nash, and maybe worse.
I think the Titans are smart enough not to draft Riggs. He cant win the starting job at UT, how would he win a job on the NFL level. Injury prone, off the field problems=no for the Titans drafting him
Jeff...
I honestly don't know what your point is. Is that why floyd reese gets a million dollars a year to flip coins? That's the dumbest thing i have ever heard.
We can't eliminate risk but we sure in the hell can reduce it. What is wrong with looking back at history and trying to see if there are any trends? All i did in my first list was name all the QBs taken with the 2nd, 3rd or 4th pick from 1982 to 2004. Is that not a big enough sample for you? It must be because you think 1983 is a big enough sample to make a point of some kind.
There are 10 QBs on that list jeff. How many do you want on your team? Mcnabb and mcnair are the only players worth a damn unless rivers proves himself. So the odds are even worse than flipping a coin! For every mcnabb or mcnair there is 2-3 pieces of crap. That is a fact! If you have a better formula please show it to me.
Finally let me ask you this jeff. Would you consider tim couch to be a great QB? Because tim couch had to start as a rookie on a first year expansion team and he had more TDs than ints that year. Your arguement that alex smith just played on a crap team is weak. One of the reasons they sucked is because iof him. Alex smith's performance in 2005 might be the worst ever for any QB. But since you love the guy so much i will be looking forward to seeing smith as your starting QB in the titan cup. Should be a blast!
Jeff you object to what you call my etiher or mentality but can you refute that? Name a year like this where there are 2 QBs near the head of the class in a draft and both guys were good. Name one jeff. You won't because you can't. All i did was remove the first pick factor. Guys like elway, manning, aikman were removed from the equation and what do we get? Bust city!
I honestly don't know what your point is. Is that why floyd reese gets a million dollars a year to flip coins? That's the dumbest thing i have ever heard.
We can't eliminate risk but we sure in the hell can reduce it. What is wrong with looking back at history and trying to see if there are any trends? All i did in my first list was name all the QBs taken with the 2nd, 3rd or 4th pick from 1982 to 2004. Is that not a big enough sample for you? It must be because you think 1983 is a big enough sample to make a point of some kind.
There are 10 QBs on that list jeff. How many do you want on your team? Mcnabb and mcnair are the only players worth a damn unless rivers proves himself. So the odds are even worse than flipping a coin! For every mcnabb or mcnair there is 2-3 pieces of crap. That is a fact! If you have a better formula please show it to me.
Finally let me ask you this jeff. Would you consider tim couch to be a great QB? Because tim couch had to start as a rookie on a first year expansion team and he had more TDs than ints that year. Your arguement that alex smith just played on a crap team is weak. One of the reasons they sucked is because iof him. Alex smith's performance in 2005 might be the worst ever for any QB. But since you love the guy so much i will be looking forward to seeing smith as your starting QB in the titan cup. Should be a blast!
Jeff you object to what you call my etiher or mentality but can you refute that? Name a year like this where there are 2 QBs near the head of the class in a draft and both guys were good. Name one jeff. You won't because you can't. All i did was remove the first pick factor. Guys like elway, manning, aikman were removed from the equation and what do we get? Bust city!
Akili and alex not related?
Geez thanks guys for setting me straight. I thought i was making a joke but thanks anyway. Akili was black huh? Wow!
Everyone knows that akili and alex are not related. It's emmitt and alex who are related. Or is it jimmy?
Geez thanks guys for setting me straight. I thought i was making a joke but thanks anyway. Akili was black huh? Wow!
Everyone knows that akili and alex are not related. It's emmitt and alex who are related. Or is it jimmy?
Surely you aren't judging Alex Smith based on one season.
Since you seem to have a thing for stats, how about this. 139/216 and 1564 yards with 6 td's and 12 picks. That would be the reigning MVP of the league Daunte Culpepper.
Everyone has a tough year every now and then. A rookie year is no circumstance to condemn someone.
Since you seem to have a thing for stats, how about this. 139/216 and 1564 yards with 6 td's and 12 picks. That would be the reigning MVP of the league Daunte Culpepper.
Everyone has a tough year every now and then. A rookie year is no circumstance to condemn someone.
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