Probably because people are sick of arguing the same thing over and over again with people who just assume they know everything there is to know...RollTide said:
Vigsted said:
Vigsted,
Rolltide is right. The stats arent meaningless. He is just misusing them badly....again.
You can use those team stats to see how players did on different teams. You can't really use those team stats to compare individuals' abilities.
Cutler's value is not in his team stats. Its in his abilities. Each of those top 3 qb's is a risk. Young because he might not be able to adapt. Lienart because he may not have a lot of growing room, his arm strength is questionable, and no one knows how he will adapt to adversity. Cutler because no one knows how he will do with better talent. Its just a matter of whats your poison.
As far as Cutler's abilities- I think he compares well to other two, but its all subjective. And thats just the way it has to be. Unless you bring in a bunch of experts to watch and analyze film.
This is how I see the three.
Young
Strengths- Athleticism, Leadership, intangibles
Weaknesses- unknowns (reading coverages, adapting to prostyle, etc), mechanics
ML
Strengths- Leadership, Consistency, Accuracy, Reading defenses, intangibles
Weaknesses- Arm strength, ability to adapt to adversity(take hits,etc), lack of comparable mobility
JC
Strengths- Arm strength, Leadership, intangibles
Weakness- unknowns (how will he do with better talent, how easily can he adapt his mechanics, is his decision making a product of his team- can he adjust)
So to me ML is the surest thing. Then I would say Cutler is less of risk than Young. I would also say Culter has more upside than Lienart. That is my purely subjective opinion.
Then I think such things as how much of gambler are you and what style of offense do you prefer? What style do the titans prefer?
Personally, I would love to see Cutlers abilities tied to Chow's offense and ability to develop qb's. I think Cutler could be something special. But I trust the titan's staff and will be happy with whoever they choose.
The only thing I dont want us to do is not get a qb. I will still trust the fo, but will be dissapointed. I dont think we will be in this position to get a top notch qb for awhile.
For what it's worth I think taking Cutler at #3 is freakin' insane.
If you fall back once or twice and take him at #10 or #11, you've hit a homerun with runners on base (loose draft pick metaphor)... that is if Cutler is who you are going after. He sure makes a good plan b when D'Brick is gone (whoops). Passing on Vince Young is not stupid but he really might be something special.
In response to the actual question though...
I have no earthly idea.
If you fall back once or twice and take him at #10 or #11, you've hit a homerun with runners on base (loose draft pick metaphor)... that is if Cutler is who you are going after. He sure makes a good plan b when D'Brick is gone (whoops). Passing on Vince Young is not stupid but he really might be something special.
Yeah... when I think Vandy I think productive qb's:suspect:
In response to the actual question though...
I have no earthly idea.
I think the Leinhart is the only sure shoe-in at QB. If he's not there at #3 it's up for speculation as to which direction we would go. Still, I'd be shocked if we didn't take a QB in this years draft.
SEC 330 BIPOLAR said:
Cutler might not make it past #4 and the Jets. Trading down past 4 thinking you can still get Cuterl is insane. Besides, it irks me that people think we can just trade down. If we have a willing partner we can but there are about 10 guys in this draft that in many years would be top 5 players. That makes trading with us less likely when they can stay put and still get a quality player. IF somebody wanted to trade with us it would be to get Cutler or Leinart.
PragIdealist said:
Excellant post Prag.
What we all need to realize is that Chow knows Leinart very well having coached him a couple of years. Chow and the Titans staff got to spend quality time with Cutler at the Senior Bowl and certainly have seen alot of him right here in town. We can argue until we are blue in the face about who has the most ability but surely the coaches have a real good feel on how these two guys compare to each other as well as other NFL QBs and know their value. Heck, they might have Cutler rated higher than Leinart for all we know (or they might have Leinart rated well above Cutler) considering they know both upclose. I trust they will make the right decision.
It was your notion that Young could be this years Rodgers?Soxcat said:
Could it just as easily be Cutler? Ten top fives? They might like to take their chances if the have NO SHOT at Matt Leinart because he was gone at #2. At that point drafting Jay Cutler #3 overall? I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. :drool: Maybe that makes it safe. Who really wants Cutler anyways besides the Vanderbilt gotitans.com forum members, their friends and families...? :ha: Everybody and their brother would want to have Reggie Bush.
The Jets could assume David Carrs contract (it's just been shaped up) and the Cows could pick Young 1st overall plus get super mega rich picks... how insane is that? Well, it's not likely anyways.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/draft/2006-02-28-cutler-stock_x.htm
Seems like a few people besides "Vanderbilt gotitans.com forum members, their friends and families...?" like Cutler.
Seems like a few people besides "Vanderbilt gotitans.com forum members, their friends and families...?" like Cutler.
Prag...
Again with a lineup of intangibles that can't be measured and again you could'nt do anything that is any more than YOUR opinion.
You said i "misused" stats. How prag? All i did was put some numbers up for people to see. I didn't even offer much in the way of conclusion. Tell me how i misused them? Omar jacobs had a season where he threw 41 TDs a MAC record and in that year only had 4 ints. Is that good or bad? Does it have any relevance to how he might do as a pro? Are there any stats that you can use better to elighten us?
I'l be waiting.
Again with a lineup of intangibles that can't be measured and again you could'nt do anything that is any more than YOUR opinion.
You said i "misused" stats. How prag? All i did was put some numbers up for people to see. I didn't even offer much in the way of conclusion. Tell me how i misused them? Omar jacobs had a season where he threw 41 TDs a MAC record and in that year only had 4 ints. Is that good or bad? Does it have any relevance to how he might do as a pro? Are there any stats that you can use better to elighten us?
I'l be waiting.
Maycock is god!
Whatever he says is got to be right. His track record is awesome!
Oh, what would happen if cutler was picked by the saints? Mayock has young 9th and lineart 10th on his big board. And it is a BIG BOARD!. Do you members of the we have to take a QB club suddenly become kiper fans since he has lienart 2nd and young 5th?
I want the titans to take the best player but for some reason that makes me some sort of criminal.
Note to sec, there have been productive vandy QBs i looked it up. Something that 99% of the posters don't do before spouting their opinions. I never said that vandy was a QB factory and you know damn well i didn't say that. Greg zolman threw for 2512 yards and 14 tds before cutler got there and he almost led vandy to a win over florida.
Whatever he says is got to be right. His track record is awesome!
Oh, what would happen if cutler was picked by the saints? Mayock has young 9th and lineart 10th on his big board. And it is a BIG BOARD!. Do you members of the we have to take a QB club suddenly become kiper fans since he has lienart 2nd and young 5th?
I want the titans to take the best player but for some reason that makes me some sort of criminal.
Note to sec, there have been productive vandy QBs i looked it up. Something that 99% of the posters don't do before spouting their opinions. I never said that vandy was a QB factory and you know damn well i didn't say that. Greg zolman threw for 2512 yards and 14 tds before cutler got there and he almost led vandy to a win over florida.
RollTide said:
There aren't any better stats. That's what I've said several times.
I'm saying you misused stats, because it looks like in this post you are comparing Omar Jacobs and Jay Cutler based on their team stats. Maybe thats not what you were trying to do.. but thats what it looked like.
Then you make a conclusion based on those team stats that Jacobs is a better value with the 20th pick than cutler would be with the 3rd pick. You made that conclusion after comparing their team stats. All these stats are saying is that Jacob had more concrete success on his team than Cutler had on Vandy. That doesnt compare their abilities; and in my mind its their abilities that give them their value.
I totally understand your desire to use facts to back up your argument. You just cant do that in these discussions because we dont have the facts that we need. Its like we're trying to build a shed and we're out of nails. Instead of admitting that and realizing that we just cant build this shed right now, you're trying to use thumb tacks. It just doesnt work.
Ok prag...
I forgot the only stats that matter for comparison according to you are guys on the same team.
Here are the stats for jacob's backup since he was on the same team playing the same opposition.
Anthony turner-52-85 492 yards, 2 tds, 4 ints...
How is that?
Based on what you said i could argue that akili smith was more talented than john elway and you couldn't have a thing to say to refute it. Because elway had more "concrete success" with his team doesn't mean he had more ability.
Is that moronic or what?
I forgot the only stats that matter for comparison according to you are guys on the same team.
Here are the stats for jacob's backup since he was on the same team playing the same opposition.
Anthony turner-52-85 492 yards, 2 tds, 4 ints...
How is that?
Based on what you said i could argue that akili smith was more talented than john elway and you couldn't have a thing to say to refute it. Because elway had more "concrete success" with his team doesn't mean he had more ability.
Is that moronic or what?
RollTide said:
I think its funny. There is some truth to that. Without stats what argument could somebody put up?
Why do you think people will argue for generations about which great player is better than another great player?
But just calling it moronic doesnt make the statement less true and using an extreme example makes it look more moronic than it is. Tell me, who was the better qb Elway or Montana? Give me an argument that doesnt use stats. Who was better Bird or Jordan? Whose achievement was more impressive Kobe Byrant or Chamberlain?
Its all opinion.
What I can say is that the Steelers were better than the Seahawks in last years Superbowl.
I also find it amusing that you blame me for their not being any concrete facts to use. I didnt steal your nails; they weren't there to begin with. I'm just trying to tell you that your shed is leaky and likely to fall down.
If Houston takes Bush, New orleans takes Brick, Hawk, or Mario.
If Houston takes Young (or any QB), New orleans takes Bush.
I say we decide between the remaining two QBs or trade down to 4 and get the QB that's left.( Thats if Jets take a QB) i think they will.
If somehow bush gets through to 2. TAKE HIM, So basicly, we get a QB in the first round.
Plus, our D-line is Better than our QB situation. We have 2 pro-bowl calibar lineman and some improving rookies. QB McNair's last year. And I don't know if Volek's ready for the responsibility of a starter.
Hey, NO's old QB Aaron Brooks is on the market, check him out!
If Houston takes Young (or any QB), New orleans takes Bush.
I say we decide between the remaining two QBs or trade down to 4 and get the QB that's left.( Thats if Jets take a QB) i think they will.
If somehow bush gets through to 2. TAKE HIM, So basicly, we get a QB in the first round.
Plus, our D-line is Better than our QB situation. We have 2 pro-bowl calibar lineman and some improving rookies. QB McNair's last year. And I don't know if Volek's ready for the responsibility of a starter.
Hey, NO's old QB Aaron Brooks is on the market, check him out!
Spinnaker...
That's the thinking i basically object to. The idea we have to take a QB whether he is the best player or not.
With brees now a saint there is the distinct possibility we could have our pick from all three top QBs. The texans will take bush i'm sure of that. So who do we take. My point all along is that cutler is not likely worth that high a pick. Some agree and some disagree. Fine we can still be friends right? So who is it?
Personally i would like to think that vince young will provide compelling evidence why we should draft him. The GMs know the truth about that wonderlic regardless what they are feeding to the media. Since young has done nothing else aside from letting them measure him(645, 229) and take the wonderlic we don't have that compelling evidence yet. My hope is that he didn't score that low and his workouts are so good he will be the guy which is what most of us assumed all along.
That's the thinking i basically object to. The idea we have to take a QB whether he is the best player or not.
With brees now a saint there is the distinct possibility we could have our pick from all three top QBs. The texans will take bush i'm sure of that. So who do we take. My point all along is that cutler is not likely worth that high a pick. Some agree and some disagree. Fine we can still be friends right? So who is it?
Personally i would like to think that vince young will provide compelling evidence why we should draft him. The GMs know the truth about that wonderlic regardless what they are feeding to the media. Since young has done nothing else aside from letting them measure him(645, 229) and take the wonderlic we don't have that compelling evidence yet. My hope is that he didn't score that low and his workouts are so good he will be the guy which is what most of us assumed all along.
RollTide said:
My 10th? why the need for 3 decimal places?
Anyway I used to have an opinion, but I realised having an actual personality is much better for me.
:winker:
RollTide, all previous posts aside.
What would you do if had the #3 pick and you REALLY wanted the 10th rated player, but nobody wants to trade with you?
Do you pick the best player available and give up on the guy you really want, or do you accept that in order to get the guy you really want you have to make a reach for him?
That's where we differ, I think, because if I REALLY wanted Cutler or Young, I would reach for them, even if they were rated 10th or whatever, and I couldn't trade down. So the question is, how badly does the organisation want Leinart, Young or Cutler, compared to the other possibilities.
What would you do if had the #3 pick and you REALLY wanted the 10th rated player, but nobody wants to trade with you?
Do you pick the best player available and give up on the guy you really want, or do you accept that in order to get the guy you really want you have to make a reach for him?
That's where we differ, I think, because if I REALLY wanted Cutler or Young, I would reach for them, even if they were rated 10th or whatever, and I couldn't trade down. So the question is, how badly does the organisation want Leinart, Young or Cutler, compared to the other possibilities.
Titans2008 said:
I'm talking being rated strictly on abilities, withouth thought of team needs, overall quality of the position in the draft, etc.
As an example Hawk is rated pretty high most places, but the draft at that position is deep. It would almost be a waste to pick Hawk in the top 10, because further down the rankings you find LB's that aren't that far from Hawk.
The same could probably be argued for Mario Williams. You have Kiwanuka, Wimbley, Hali, Lawson, who are all close behind Williams (and no I'm not saying they're as good, but they could easily wind up having better careers).
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