The 6-7 QBs who won the SB who were not great (or having great seasons).
Peyton (2015), Foles, Flacco, Eli (2007), B Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler.
And I think it's generous giving you Peyton in his last year. Yes he played terrible for most of the regular season because he was injured, but he's still Peyton Manning and he played well in the playoffs for the most part.
Every other QB to win had a pretty great season and nearly all of them are or will be HOFers.
Peyton (2015), Foles, Flacco, Eli (2007), B Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler.
And I think it's generous giving you Peyton in his last year. Yes he played terrible for most of the regular season because he was injured, but he's still Peyton Manning and he played well in the playoffs for the most part.
Every other QB to win had a pretty great season and nearly all of them are or will be HOFers.
Boy, thanks for being generous. :sarcasm:
I asked a simple question, what criteria did you use?
just because the name is a HoF or eventual one, doesn’t mean they even had a good season the year they won the SB.
this is how I know you only went by a name without looking anything up, Brad Johnson had a career year for his SB win and was a top 10 QB that year.
Considering your years of suggestion, you definitely gave credit where it’s not due. Aikman for example was not that good at all. John Elway wasn’t HoF every year.
and while I assume you have to be joking about 2015 Manning, that is the absolute worst QB performance to ever win a SB by a long shot. That is the definition season that proves you can actually have a crap QB and win a SB despite being extreme outlier.
Lol, and you have the audacity of accusing me of not looking up the stats?
Aikman was Top 10 or top 5 in virtually every category in 92 and 93. 95 was a strong year at QB and while his counting stats fell just outside the top 10, he did have the 3rd best QB rating.0
Likewise, Elway was among the leagues elite in 97 and 98 in virtually every category.
I will be honest, I didn't look at how Brad Johnson compared to rest of the league in 2002. I just assumed those numbers were pretty weak overall. However, the league as a whole was pretty weak at QB in 2002, so he had a top 10 year by default. Still, in 2002 he was 17th in yards, 16th in YPA, 10th in TDs, 15th in passing attempts. Seems more like he was a glorified game manager with an all time great defense. But I digress.
If you want to swap out 95 Aikman for 02 Brad Johnson, be my guest. It doesn't change anything. That still leaves you with 6 QBs that won the SB without being great/having great individual seasons.
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So the criteria you used to grade each QB should be easy to explain.
what are they again?
Aggregate stats (most important) followed by MVP Votes, awards, etc.
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I didn't say pro bowls were important. Though they aren't necessarily meaningless. I wouldn't call someone a top 10 QB based solely on PB.
But when you said:
“Past 30+ years, the SB winner has had a great QB like 80% of the time. And typically the SB loser also has a great QB. “
and:
“That means right at 80% of the SBwinners between now and then had a great QB”
what is the criteria for a “great QB”?
As an example, I wrote Top 10 for that QB on the individual year that they reached the SB.
I can explain how I reached what made a QB top 10 or not but we may have different criteria.
You stated aggregate stats and awards, including MVP. I have to assume you meant for that specific year, not just in general.
Then I’m asking where your cutoff is for “great”.
I mean I think it's rather clear looking at the individual QBs and their specific years. There maybe a couple borderline, like Aikman in 95 and Johnson in 2002. But every other one is clear as day. Warner, Brady (7), Rodgers, Brees, Big Ben (2), Rus Wilson, Mahomes, Stafford, Favre, Elway (2), Peyton, Eli in 2011, Young, Aikman (3), Montana (2), Rypien.
That's 27 times (or roughly 80%). All undisputably were among the leagues best QBs those years. And don't get me started on how many SB appearances and conference championships between that group as well.
QB is without a doubt the most important position on this field. And history has proven if you don't have a really good one, your chances of winning a SB are slim, as are your chances of staying competitive consistently over a long period of time.
And this years SB marks another one that will be won by a team with great QB play, regardless of who wins.
That's 27 times (or roughly 80%). All undisputably were among the leagues best QBs those years. And don't get me started on how many SB appearances and conference championships between that group as well.
QB is without a doubt the most important position on this field. And history has proven if you don't have a really good one, your chances of winning a SB are slim, as are your chances of staying competitive consistently over a long period of time.
And this years SB marks another one that will be won by a team with great QB play, regardless of who wins.
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These QBs were not top 10 the year listed and they went to the SB
89 Elway
90 Hostetler
93 Aikman
94 Humphries
95 Aikman
95 O’donnell
99 McNair
00 Dilfer
01 Brady
03 Delhomme
05 Ben R
06 Grossman
07 Eli
08 Ben R
10 Ben R
12 Flacco
12 Kaepernick
14 Russ Wilson
15 Peyton
17 Foles
18 Brady
19 Jimmy G
And I’ll make the argument that hurts is outside the top 10 this year, although I’d say right around 10.
Look up the stats and compare to the rest of the league that year.
One Important stat I’ve noticed, 15 winning QBs had 10 or less INT on the year (didnt count the partial season guys, Hos, Foles, dilfer who had 11 anyway)
5 QBs played 11 or less games, Hos, Kap, Foles, McNair, Dilfer
And 40 of the 63 left were in the top 10 INT. Don’t turn the ball over.
Edit: still don’t know what makes someone “great” in your descriptions. Or now “really good one” although I agree your chances dip dramatically the worse your QB is, still not impossible.
Consistently competitive is another argument as well. So much more involved.
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I've seen the stats of all of them and you are easily wrong on half your list.
Good argument.
Says the guy counting Big Ben with 2400 yards and 17 TDs, then again 3300 yards and a 17/15 ratio.
impressively mediocre. Prime examples of D carry a marginal QB.
also impressed by 15 and 16 TD Aikman.
And yes, even Brady has been carried by his D before.
1. Aikman played in a different era. 4k yard passers and 25+ TD seasons were not the norm in 1993. His stats are absolutely top 10 overall among the the QBs in the league.
2. Ben missed 4 games due to injury in 2005.
1. I know. He still had 10 guys ahead of him in yds and TD. He was the game manager. Just didn’t turn the ball over, let the D win and hand off to Emmitt. They also didn’t have to worry about salary cap then.
2. and even projecting 4 more games, he would have been 10 in TDs, 21 in yards.
Apparently you don't understand what "aggregate" means.
Warren Moon, Steve Buerlein, and Jim Kelly had more TDs and Yards than Aikman in 93. But they most certainly were not better than Aikman. They had the same amount of TDs as INTs and a much lower completion percentage. Aikman was 2nd in QB rating.
Same with Ben in 2005, who missed 4 games (and parts of other games) with various injuries. Finished 3rd in QB rating.
I don't understand why I have to keep explaining this. It's OBVIOUS NFL teams don't feel the same way you do or they wouldn't put the sort of resources they do into finding a Top QB. It's why we were trying to sign Brady in the first place 3 years ago despite Tanne playing well at the time. It's why the Raiders are moving on from a perfectly solid QB in Derek Carr. It's why the Chiefs moved up to grab Mahomes despite having success with Alex Smith. It's why the 49ers moved up for Trey Lance with Jimmy G getting them to a SB barely 15 months prior. It's why the Rams traded away Goff and 2 1st round picks for Stafford despite Goff getting them to a SB appearance roughly 3 years prior.
Trying to win a SB with mediocre QB and a great team around him is simply not a great recipe for success. The fact is that it seldom happens. Tanne also isn't a spring chicken anymore at 34 (he'll be 35 to start the season). So it's far more likely he continues to regress than improve upon recent seasons.
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Yep, we are done, never gonna see eye to eye here.
you can argue aggregate to change what a guy actually did, ie not get relied on the same as the other actual top 10 QBs
And you can keep saying “obviously teams today…..” with perfect examples of how stupid some teams are and specifically in their approach over valuing QB.
It’s not that a QB isnt valuable. But as proven time and time again, you don’t need 5K 50 TD Mahomes to win.
You need low INT, mediocre QB and a solid team around him. Typically much more affordable and allows to build other positions.
I’m sure as you looked into all this, you noticed that Rodgers and Peyton (IND) are examples of actually putting a D around a superstar QB. Coincidently, Rodgers won with one of his statistically lowest seasons (although still really good) so it’s like GB actually reached pinnacle by relying a little less on Rodgers.
3 guys have ever reached the SB with 20 INT.
this year will make 25 of 34 years that the SB winner threw 12 or less INT which includes the years where INT were up from where they are today. Top 10 TD, not necessary, Top 10 INT (lowest) much more necessary.
I never said it isn't possible. I said it is unlikely, which statistics prove. And it's even more improbable to maintain a consistent amount of success that way over the long haul.
You should check this thread out and then consider some of their QBs keeping them successful.
Titans specifically, #9 and I can’t recall anyone ever going Gaga over our QB. I’d say the same for Balt, despite the recent 2 year run with Lamar Jackson that people prematurely went Gaga over. Seattle, I guess Hasselbeck outside of Wilson, KC has had Mahomes for 6 years but who else over the 23 year period?
Eagles had Mcnabb for awhile but since?
https://gotitans.com/threads/how-each-nfl-franchise-has-fared-1999-through-2022.103685/#post-2031546
https://gotitans.com/threads/how-each-nfl-franchise-has-fared-1999-through-2022.103685/#post-2031546
How Each NFL Franchise Has Fared 1999 Through 2022
Ftr, I still didn’t get your definition of what a “great” or “one of the greats” or “franchise QB” is. There must be some sort of cutoff to define the not “greats”.
Titans specifically, #9 and I can’t recall anyone ever going Gaga over our QB. I’d say the same for Balt, despite the recent 2 year run with Lamar Jackson that people prematurely went Gaga over. Seattle, I guess Hasselbeck outside of Wilson, KC has had Mahomes for 6 years but who else over the 23 year period?
Eagles had Mcnabb for awhile but since?
https://gotitans.com/threads/how-each-nfl-franchise-has-fared-1999-through-2022.103685/#post-2031546
https://gotitans.com/threads/how-each-nfl-franchise-has-fared-1999-through-2022.103685/#post-2031546
How Each NFL Franchise Has Fared 1999 Through 2022
Ftr, I still didn’t get your definition of what a “great” or “one of the greats” or “franchise QB” is. There must be some sort of cutoff to define the not “greats”.
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