Soxcat said:
I would love to see that chart, whoever does it highlite the 3rd down runs.
Even in CB's best season he was only like 30th in run success according to the Outsiders.
Starkiller said:
Because the amount you pay for 5 good/great linemen as opposed to 5 average linemen is less than what you pay for 1 good/great runningback as opposed to 1 average runningback.
LT easily costs twice as much as CB if not more, but I doubt the Denver or Pittsburgh O-line cost twice as much as any O-line in the league (even the Cardinals).
I didn't mean cheaper in an absolute comparison.
2008...
4.2 yards a carry is mediocre? In eddie george's last three years here he averaged a full yard less than that. In eddie prime years he averaged less than that. It's not that bad. You said that brown was a bad back. What is your definition of "bad"? And to say that he is too expensive is moronic. He's costing us peanuts!
Yet again another poster ignores completely brown's talent in the passing game. :sad2:
If we can get henry to sign a 2 year deal for around $3M that means we can have both backs for just over $2M against the cap. We can be assured that on any given sunday one of those 2 guys will be healthy and motivated to play and both should be plenty motivated this season. What are our other options? I want us to use our money and draft picks on some other area of the team where we need it most. With a little better luck with the injuries brown is capable of having the kind of year willie parker had.
4.2 yards a carry is mediocre? In eddie george's last three years here he averaged a full yard less than that. In eddie prime years he averaged less than that. It's not that bad. You said that brown was a bad back. What is your definition of "bad"? And to say that he is too expensive is moronic. He's costing us peanuts!
Yet again another poster ignores completely brown's talent in the passing game. :sad2:
If we can get henry to sign a 2 year deal for around $3M that means we can have both backs for just over $2M against the cap. We can be assured that on any given sunday one of those 2 guys will be healthy and motivated to play and both should be plenty motivated this season. What are our other options? I want us to use our money and draft picks on some other area of the team where we need it most. With a little better luck with the injuries brown is capable of having the kind of year willie parker had.
SEC 330 BIPOLAR said:
Brown was an 1800 yard back in college and one of the reasons he went so low in the draft was because of his running style and injury concerns.
I agree that Brown has issues with staying healthy but this argumanet keeps going around in circles. EG was one of the most durable backs in NFL history (although I would contest his toe injury basically ended his days as a dominant RB) so setting EGs durability as the standard is setting the standard pretty darn high. Also keep in mind that EG was an early 1st round pick, Brown was a late 3rd. Also keep in mind that Brown had 6 100 yard games in 11 games. EG his last 3 years had 7.
Now, do we need a solid backup RB to compliment Brown and fill in when he is injured? Yes, which is why even after Brown becomes a FA he will not bring the kind of money a true franchise back would bring. However, this idea we can just pick a franchise back like Edge (who has had injury problems in his career) or Alexander or LT is pure fantasy unless we want to use an early round pick and even then there are no guarantees. Heck, there are no guarantees even if we draft a RB who was never hurt in college he will not rip a knee in training camp and be lost for his whole career. Thats why dumping a high 1st round pick and a bunch of money into a RB is risky.
Some interesting stats...
Eddie george career. One first down every 5.4 carries. 522 first downs, 2865 carries.
Chris brown career. One first down every 5.8 carries. 85 first downs, 500 carries.
Eddie george one first down for every 2.5 pass receptions. 106 first downs, 268 catches.
Chris brown one first down for every 2.1 pass receptions. 25 FDs out of 53 catches.
Night and day difference? No.
A note about football outsiders which is a stat site that tries to use a formula for evaluating players, teams and units. I can't complain about them too much after all they are free and do provide some interesting stat comparisons but their methodology is flawed. For starters their minimums are too low. The minimum carries for a runningback to be ranked is just 75. It should be 125-150. As a result backup players actually get ranked higher than starters, even pro bowl players!
For example in 2002 travis henry made the pro bowl with over 1400 yards rushing. According to football outsider methodology henry was only the 32nd most effective runner that year. I think that makes my point.
Eddie george career. One first down every 5.4 carries. 522 first downs, 2865 carries.
Chris brown career. One first down every 5.8 carries. 85 first downs, 500 carries.
Eddie george one first down for every 2.5 pass receptions. 106 first downs, 268 catches.
Chris brown one first down for every 2.1 pass receptions. 25 FDs out of 53 catches.
Night and day difference? No.
A note about football outsiders which is a stat site that tries to use a formula for evaluating players, teams and units. I can't complain about them too much after all they are free and do provide some interesting stat comparisons but their methodology is flawed. For starters their minimums are too low. The minimum carries for a runningback to be ranked is just 75. It should be 125-150. As a result backup players actually get ranked higher than starters, even pro bowl players!
For example in 2002 travis henry made the pro bowl with over 1400 yards rushing. According to football outsider methodology henry was only the 32nd most effective runner that year. I think that makes my point.
Ripping into bipolar...
Don't you understand the concept of draft value? That you expect far more out of a first rd pick than a third? Chris brown was drafted in the same round that we drafted rich gardner. How about shad meir? Remember him? Byron frisch? All third rd picks.
Why would anyone assume that a late, very late third rd pick would even still be on this team? If chris brown had been nothing more than a good backup-third down back we would have to consider him a good pick. Chris brown was the 93rd player taken in that draft!
Some third rd picks don't even make the team.
The issue here is not whether brown is as good as alexander, or eddie in his prime. Nobody is saying that brown will be making any pro bowls. The issue is whether brown is worth the 605K we are paying him. Some posters here are trying to act as if brown is no better or maybe not as good as payton or nash. That's moronic! The guy has given us 1180 yards of offense a season!
And by the way, i prefer you not refer to me as tide. From now on you will call me mr. analyst! Thank you!
Don't you understand the concept of draft value? That you expect far more out of a first rd pick than a third? Chris brown was drafted in the same round that we drafted rich gardner. How about shad meir? Remember him? Byron frisch? All third rd picks.
Why would anyone assume that a late, very late third rd pick would even still be on this team? If chris brown had been nothing more than a good backup-third down back we would have to consider him a good pick. Chris brown was the 93rd player taken in that draft!
Some third rd picks don't even make the team.
The issue here is not whether brown is as good as alexander, or eddie in his prime. Nobody is saying that brown will be making any pro bowls. The issue is whether brown is worth the 605K we are paying him. Some posters here are trying to act as if brown is no better or maybe not as good as payton or nash. That's moronic! The guy has given us 1180 yards of offense a season!
And by the way, i prefer you not refer to me as tide. From now on you will call me mr. analyst! Thank you!
Ok Mr. Analyst. My grasp of draft value is limited but other 3rd round picks go on to be superstars. I think I already said he is worth his peanuts salary. To me, it's a question of the Titans having a feature back that can carry the load in future years. I'm not trying to hate on Brown. Far from it. I'm just daydreaming about the day when we have a true run threat that starts virtually all the time and puts up sick numbers. I want an Alexander or LT...
btw- It is my opinion that Nash is an unknown quanity.
btw- It is my opinion that Nash is an unknown quanity.
FA RBs....better than brown..
I included what their age will be when the 2006 season begins..
Alexander-29
Edge-28
Deshaun foster-26
Ahman green-28
Jamal Lewis-27
There you go, 2 guys who are out of our price range, 2 other injury prone backs and an ex-con coming off a horrible year.
Other interesting possibilities?
Najeh davenport
La brandon toefield
Both of these guys are big backs who could replace henry and lighten the load for brown.
As for the draft it seems unlikely we can get a top back. Only possibility would be to trade down and get williams a potential LT type back or white a potential eddie george type back. Not likely.
Everyone has opinions and smart assed comments but no solutions. Come on now give us the solution. I told you mine. Try to get the price tage on henry down enough to keep him and for obvious reasons we keep brown. If there is value at RB in the 4th rd we can draft one. A leon washington perhaps or a norwood. The long time feature back that sec bipolar wants will most likely have to be in 2007 draft.
In the meantime there is a chance that either henry or brown will step up and have a healthy motivated year or both of them can solidly contribute. In the meatime let's address the other needs on this team such as our future franchise QB, a linebacker or 2 and some o-lineman.
I included what their age will be when the 2006 season begins..
Alexander-29
Edge-28
Deshaun foster-26
Ahman green-28
Jamal Lewis-27
There you go, 2 guys who are out of our price range, 2 other injury prone backs and an ex-con coming off a horrible year.
Other interesting possibilities?
Najeh davenport
La brandon toefield
Both of these guys are big backs who could replace henry and lighten the load for brown.
As for the draft it seems unlikely we can get a top back. Only possibility would be to trade down and get williams a potential LT type back or white a potential eddie george type back. Not likely.
Everyone has opinions and smart assed comments but no solutions. Come on now give us the solution. I told you mine. Try to get the price tage on henry down enough to keep him and for obvious reasons we keep brown. If there is value at RB in the 4th rd we can draft one. A leon washington perhaps or a norwood. The long time feature back that sec bipolar wants will most likely have to be in 2007 draft.
In the meantime there is a chance that either henry or brown will step up and have a healthy motivated year or both of them can solidly contribute. In the meatime let's address the other needs on this team such as our future franchise QB, a linebacker or 2 and some o-lineman.
Would you make this trade?
Our second rd pick in exchange for the texans top pick in rd 3. We get dominick davis. Would you take that? I'm just asking. The price is probably too high but what price would you pay?.
I actually like davis right now more than even alexander or edge. Davis is still young enough to have most of his career(he will be 26 in october) ahead of him but he has played long enough to establish a solid track record unlike a draft pick. Plus contract won't be an issue for him. The texans just signed him to a deal that will last through most of his productive playing days at a price tag of about $4M a year.
So what would you rather have?
Alexander or edge for 2-3 great years for $10M a year.
Davis for 4-5 good years at $4M a year
Travis henry for maybe 2-3 good years(maybe) for $1.6M a year.
Now there are drawbacks to davis. He has durability issues of his own missing starts in each of his three seasons. That is why he still has not rushed for 1200 yards. Also davis is not a star caliber back like an edge or alexander. His averages for yards per carry or catch are ordinary at 4.1 and 8.3 respectively. He is a solid player but not an impact player. On the positive side he is a nice fit for this offense and is a very good receiver out of the backfield.
Our second rd pick in exchange for the texans top pick in rd 3. We get dominick davis. Would you take that? I'm just asking. The price is probably too high but what price would you pay?.
I actually like davis right now more than even alexander or edge. Davis is still young enough to have most of his career(he will be 26 in october) ahead of him but he has played long enough to establish a solid track record unlike a draft pick. Plus contract won't be an issue for him. The texans just signed him to a deal that will last through most of his productive playing days at a price tag of about $4M a year.
So what would you rather have?
Alexander or edge for 2-3 great years for $10M a year.
Davis for 4-5 good years at $4M a year
Travis henry for maybe 2-3 good years(maybe) for $1.6M a year.
Now there are drawbacks to davis. He has durability issues of his own missing starts in each of his three seasons. That is why he still has not rushed for 1200 yards. Also davis is not a star caliber back like an edge or alexander. His averages for yards per carry or catch are ordinary at 4.1 and 8.3 respectively. He is a solid player but not an impact player. On the positive side he is a nice fit for this offense and is a very good receiver out of the backfield.
A "bad" back is one that shouldn't be starting. Leon Washington is a clone of CB. He runs upright, probably has a little better speed, but never breaks a tackle. I don't really see why you think stats will tell you the whole story. Think about it logically. How many factors go into the running game ? For example...
1) Our offensive lines are not the same now as they were then.
2) Our passing game is not the same now as it was then.
3) We get behind more often now than we did then. This limits the overall carries, but makes for a higher average since the defense will be playing pass.
4) We realize that CB can't make a 3rd and short conversion, so he doesn't have to worry about that 1 yard carry lowering his average. Similarly, we don't run it in the red zone very often for the same reason. We don't try to run the clock out when we do have a lead as much as we did. Yet more carries that are usually small gains.
5) We're not a run first offense like we were then. Defenses have no reason to key on our running game.
6) EG had to take virtually every carry of the game causing greater fatigue and chance for injury. CB only carries half the load most of the time. I would like to see how many games that he had 20+ carries over the past year or two. I bet it's not many...
And like I said, you're still arguing for nothing. Neither back was all that great. CB is a very good backup and a below average starter. Good for his price tag but still not a solution.
1) Our offensive lines are not the same now as they were then.
2) Our passing game is not the same now as it was then.
3) We get behind more often now than we did then. This limits the overall carries, but makes for a higher average since the defense will be playing pass.
4) We realize that CB can't make a 3rd and short conversion, so he doesn't have to worry about that 1 yard carry lowering his average. Similarly, we don't run it in the red zone very often for the same reason. We don't try to run the clock out when we do have a lead as much as we did. Yet more carries that are usually small gains.
5) We're not a run first offense like we were then. Defenses have no reason to key on our running game.
6) EG had to take virtually every carry of the game causing greater fatigue and chance for injury. CB only carries half the load most of the time. I would like to see how many games that he had 20+ carries over the past year or two. I bet it's not many...
And like I said, you're still arguing for nothing. Neither back was all that great. CB is a very good backup and a below average starter. Good for his price tag but still not a solution.
And the comment about Jamal Lewis isn't fair at all. You talk about CB not being a bad back by citing the year he had before this one. What about Lewis ? All he did was gain 2000 yards. Ex-con ? Please. That was something he did like seven years ago. He owned up to it and did his time. He will probably come with a cheap price tag, making him well worth the small risk. Worst case scenario, he is an excellent short yardage back. Best case scenario he makes another couple pro bowls.
2008 without a clue..
Leon washington a brown clone? Brown is 6'3, washington 5'8-5'9 depending on what site you are on. A 5'8 back runs too high? All i did was list his name as a possible 4th rd pick anyway.
All i said about lewis is that he is an ex-con coming off a horrible year. What about that is not true and what about that would bother you so much? Are you also a former con from a drug rap? Why the emotional response? I'm a joke because i said something absolutely true about someone? I think you have the problem.
Lewis might have some pro bowls left in him but you have rocks in your head if you think his past doesn't count. I guarentee that is issue number one for the titans or any team that considers signing him. Also many raven fans will tell you that they think lewis quit this year after a slow start. Most raven fans will tell you his effort this year was not 100%. The 2000 yard season seems like a distant memory now and in the last 2 years lewis has not even rushed for as much yardage as in 2003.
Leon washington a brown clone? Brown is 6'3, washington 5'8-5'9 depending on what site you are on. A 5'8 back runs too high? All i did was list his name as a possible 4th rd pick anyway.
All i said about lewis is that he is an ex-con coming off a horrible year. What about that is not true and what about that would bother you so much? Are you also a former con from a drug rap? Why the emotional response? I'm a joke because i said something absolutely true about someone? I think you have the problem.
Lewis might have some pro bowls left in him but you have rocks in your head if you think his past doesn't count. I guarentee that is issue number one for the titans or any team that considers signing him. Also many raven fans will tell you that they think lewis quit this year after a slow start. Most raven fans will tell you his effort this year was not 100%. The 2000 yard season seems like a distant memory now and in the last 2 years lewis has not even rushed for as much yardage as in 2003.
First of all Lewis is not going to have a cheap price tag. If he did come cheap enough I wouldn't mind seeing the Titans take a shot at him but I believe he isn't going to be cheap enough.
Secondly Tide made a good point earlier. If CB or Henry are not the solution what is the solution? Should we use our #3 pick on a RB? How about our 2nd ropund pick. Exactly who do you see as the viable option that is going to give us that Eddie George, in his prime prior to the toes injury type of back? I get tired of all the negative comments without any positive solutions.
Secondly Tide made a good point earlier. If CB or Henry are not the solution what is the solution? Should we use our #3 pick on a RB? How about our 2nd ropund pick. Exactly who do you see as the viable option that is going to give us that Eddie George, in his prime prior to the toes injury type of back? I get tired of all the negative comments without any positive solutions.
For Titans2008 Brown has had 8 games over the last two years where he carried 20 times or more and a couple of others with 19 carries.
In 2004 Brown started the season with 16 carries in the 1st half against Miami for 100 yards before hurting his ankle. The next game against Indy he carried 26 times for 152 yards. The next game against the Jags he carried 23 times for 101 yards. He only carried 15 times the next game against San Diego because we got behind early (and stunk the whole game). The next game against GB on Monday night he carried 27 times for 147 yards. He hurt his toe and had carries of 13 and 14 the next two games but came back with a 32 carry game for 147 yards against Cincy. He then followed that game with 20 carries against Chicago which ended up being one of the most pathetic offensive games by two teams in NFL history.
Brown missed the next two games but returned to carry 19 times against Indy for another 104 yards and finished his season against KC with a 15 carry game for 91 yards. When Brown was healthy he did fine carrying the load and produced 100 yards or so consistently. If you can objectively look at Brown's production in 2004 and say he isn't starting material you are nuts.
In 2004 Brown started the season with 16 carries in the 1st half against Miami for 100 yards before hurting his ankle. The next game against Indy he carried 26 times for 152 yards. The next game against the Jags he carried 23 times for 101 yards. He only carried 15 times the next game against San Diego because we got behind early (and stunk the whole game). The next game against GB on Monday night he carried 27 times for 147 yards. He hurt his toe and had carries of 13 and 14 the next two games but came back with a 32 carry game for 147 yards against Cincy. He then followed that game with 20 carries against Chicago which ended up being one of the most pathetic offensive games by two teams in NFL history.
Brown missed the next two games but returned to carry 19 times against Indy for another 104 yards and finished his season against KC with a 15 carry game for 91 yards. When Brown was healthy he did fine carrying the load and produced 100 yards or so consistently. If you can objectively look at Brown's production in 2004 and say he isn't starting material you are nuts.
Interesting...ouch!
Jamal lewis the last 2 seasons.
1912 yards rushing
307 yards receiving
2219 total yards
9 total TDs
Chris brown last 2 seasons
1918 rushing yards
474 yards receiving
2392 total yards
13 total TDs
Chris brown had more yardage rushing, receiving, 173 more total yards and 4 more TDs than stud lewis but it is brown who sucks big time and jamal who rocks! Oh yeah! And of course no one dare bring up the facts of jamal's criminal past you are liable to hurt a certain poster's feelings.
Hey 2008, who is your daddy?::suspect:
Jamal lewis the last 2 seasons.
1912 yards rushing
307 yards receiving
2219 total yards
9 total TDs
Chris brown last 2 seasons
1918 rushing yards
474 yards receiving
2392 total yards
13 total TDs
Chris brown had more yardage rushing, receiving, 173 more total yards and 4 more TDs than stud lewis but it is brown who sucks big time and jamal who rocks! Oh yeah! And of course no one dare bring up the facts of jamal's criminal past you are liable to hurt a certain poster's feelings.
Hey 2008, who is your daddy?::suspect:
So you would rather have brown than J. Lewis? Just asking, it is what you seem to be saying. Not me, I would take a "3 yards and a clould of dust" back over brown. The point is a running game that you can depend on and win games with. A running game is used, at least the way Fisher uses one, to wear the D down and kill the clock when you have a lead. Two things we have done little of since C. Brown.:suspect:
Big TT said:
When was the last time we had a lead big enough to just kill clock? Being up by 3 isn't nearly enough to just grind clock, with the aneamic defence we've had the past few seasons.
RollTide said:
Stats don't even begin to tell the whole story. The running backs are in two completely different situations. And like I've already listed, there are many factors that go into the "stats" that you evaluate with.
Jamal Lewis has far more potential to be a great running back again than Chris Brown does. Can i foresee the future ? Do I sit here and tell you that I know it will happen ? No. But Jamal Lewis was once the best running back in the league (a very short time ago) and has shown me nothing that tells me he can't be a very good rb again. Chris Brown, on the other hand, has reached his full potential. I really could care less how many yards he racked up. I've seen him play. I know what he's capable of. Brown simply doesn't have the potential to do what Lewis has already done. It really is as simple as that.
And to Soxcat... 8/32 isn't good... sure he's had some good games. There isn't some number you can look at in a vacuum and say.. "hell, he got a thousand yards this year, he must be great". If you look at the tape and you realize he could have had 2000 yards if he was a better player, then he isn't good enough.
Maybe next time I'll just pull a Bama and pick out one line in your post to pick apart with out of context google stats.
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